Greg Kroah-Hartman's announcement for free Linux driver development [story [1]] included the necesssary legal framework to honor NDAs when creating GPL'd drivers. This allowance was discussed on the OpenBSD -misc mailing list. In a public exchange with Greg KH, Stephan Rickauer said, "now these companies have a great excuse to keep specs locked up tight under NDA, while pretending to be 'open.' The OpenBSD project has made clear more than once how this will hurt Free Software in the long run. Signing NDA's ensures that Linux gets a working driver, sure, but the internals are indistinguishable from magic. It is a source code version of a blob." OpenBSD founder Theo de Raadt [interview [2]] called the free driver effort a farce, "you are trying to make sure that maintainers of code -- ie. any random joe who wants to improve the code in the future -- has LESS ACCESS to docs later on because someone signed an NDA to write it in the first place. You are making a very big mistake."
Greg pointed the discussion to his FAQ [3] in which the final question asks about the BSD operating systems and the answer states, "what about them? They are free to do whatever they wish, I have no input into their development at all, sorry." Greg further clarified, "well, as my goal is to have a GPL driver for everything, I don't see how this can hurt :) Now others can have different goals, and that's great and fine. I'm not saying you can't work on something if you wish to do so."
Marco Peereboom replied, "the GPL has become the new safe harbor for companies who don't want to play in the open source world. Do you really think Sun is GPLing Java because they think it is the right thing to do? The answer might surprise you; they are doing it under pressure from investors because they are not making money. Now how do you give something away but not really? Exactly, Copyrights + GPL. What a fantastic combination! You get inherent patent protection because no one can use your code and copyrights take care of the rest."
From: "Stephan A. Rickauer" [email blocked] To: greg Subject: Free Linux Driver Development! Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 08:39:36 +0100 On the subject of http://www.kroah.com/log/linux/free_drivers.html [4] Now these companies have a great excuse to keep specs locked up tight under NDA, while pretending to be "open." The OpenBSD project has been made clear more than once how this will hurt Free Software in the long run. Signing NDA's ensures that Linux gets a working driver, sure, but the internals are indistinguishable from magic. It is a source code version of a blob. It now became clear you also don't give a damn about freedom. Well done, Greg. -- Stephan A. Rickauer ----------------------------------------------------------- Institute of Neuroinformatics Tel +41 44 635 30 50 University / ETH Zurich Sec +41 44 635 30 52 Winterthurerstrasse 190 Fax +41 44 635 30 53 CH-8057 Zurich Web www.ini.unizh.ch [5] RSA public key: https://www.ini.uzh.ch/~stephan/pubkey.asc [6] -----------------------------------------------------------
From: Greg KH [email blocked] Subject: Re: Free Linux Driver Development! Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 23:50:05 -0800 On Wed, Feb 14, 2007 at 08:39:36AM +0100, Stephan A. Rickauer wrote: > On the subject of http://www.kroah.com/log/linux/free_drivers.html [7] > > Now these companies have a great excuse to keep specs locked up tight > under NDA, while pretending to be "open." > > The OpenBSD project has been made clear more than once how this will > hurt Free Software in the long run. Signing NDA's ensures that Linux > gets a working driver, sure, but the internals are indistinguishable > from magic. It is a source code version of a blob. I'm guessing that you did not read the followup FAQ about the program at: http://www.kroah.com/log/linux/free_drivers_faq.html [8] Please see the final question and answer on that page. thanks, greg k-h
From: "Stephan A. Rickauer" [email blocked] Subject: Re: Free Linux Driver Development! Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 10:06:36 +0100 Greg KH wrote: > On Wed, Feb 14, 2007 at 08:39:36AM +0100, Stephan A. Rickauer wrote: >> On the subject of http://www.kroah.com/log/linux/free_drivers.html [9] >> >> Now these companies have a great excuse to keep specs locked up tight >> under NDA, while pretending to be "open." >> >> The OpenBSD project has been made clear more than once how this will >> hurt Free Software in the long run. Signing NDA's ensures that Linux >> gets a working driver, sure, but the internals are indistinguishable >> from magic. It is a source code version of a blob. > > I'm guessing that you did not read the followup FAQ about the program > at: > http://www.kroah.com/log/linux/free_drivers_faq.html [10] > > Please see the final question and answer on that page. I did read your FAQ but I can't see how it rebuts what has just been said. You seem to be happy with signing NDAs. If the result is a readable and understandable GPL'ed driver, companies will be even less motivated to release programming documentation. This will lead to a GPL-lock-in since you simply replace the vendor not willing to share specifications with an NDA'ed GPL developer not willing to share those, but GPL code only. This is not about freedom but about prostitution. All other projects will have to continue to reverse engineer GPL drivers. A very short sighted strategy of yours, but that's just my opinion. I am just disappointed how easily prominent people like you give up freedom, accompanied by clever-sounding excuses. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance... -- Stephan A. Rickauer ----------------------------------------------------------- Institute of Neuroinformatics Tel +41 44 635 30 50 University / ETH Zurich Sec +41 44 635 30 52 Winterthurerstrasse 190 Fax +41 44 635 30 53 CH-8057 Zurich Web www.ini.unizh.ch [11] RSA public key: https://www.ini.uzh.ch/~stephan/pubkey.asc [12] -----------------------------------------------------------
From: Greg KH [email blocked] Subject: Re: Free Linux Driver Development! Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 01:42:25 -0800 On Wed, Feb 14, 2007 at 10:06:36AM +0100, Stephan A. Rickauer wrote: > Greg KH wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 14, 2007 at 08:39:36AM +0100, Stephan A. Rickauer wrote: > >> On the subject of http://www.kroah.com/log/linux/free_drivers.html [13] > >> > >> Now these companies have a great excuse to keep specs locked up tight > >> under NDA, while pretending to be "open." > >> > >> The OpenBSD project has been made clear more than once how this will > >> hurt Free Software in the long run. Signing NDA's ensures that Linux > >> gets a working driver, sure, but the internals are indistinguishable > >> from magic. It is a source code version of a blob. > > > > I'm guessing that you did not read the followup FAQ about the program > > at: > > http://www.kroah.com/log/linux/free_drivers_faq.html [14] > > > > Please see the final question and answer on that page. > > I did read your FAQ but I can't see how it rebuts what has just been > said. You seem to have missed: Q: What about the BSDs? A: What about them? They are free to do whatever they wish, I have no input into their development at all, sorry. > You seem to be happy with signing NDAs. If the result is a > readable and understandable GPL'ed driver, companies will be even less > motivated to release programming documentation. This will lead to a > GPL-lock-in since you simply replace the vendor not willing to share > specifications with an NDA'ed GPL developer not willing to share those, > but GPL code only. Well, as my goal is to have a GPL driver for everything, I don't see how this can hurt :) Now others can have different goals, and that's great and fine. I'm not saying you can't work on something if you wish to do so. But for you to try to tell me that I shouldn't work to achive my goal, as it somehow conflicts with your goals, is pretty rude, don't you think? There is no reason you can not extend the same kind of offer to companies to help your project achieve success. > This is not about freedom but about prostitution. I'm sorry you feel this way. *plonk*
From: Marco Peereboom [email blocked] Subject: Re: Free Linux Driver Development! Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 09:02:34 -0600 Man I *love* unforeseen consequences! > > I did read your FAQ but I can't see how it rebuts what has just been > > said. > > You seem to have missed: > Q: What about the BSDs? > > A: What about them? They are free to do whatever they wish, I > have no input into their development at all, sorry. This is awesome, you protect the vendors by pretending to provide free code. This is so funny that I have tears in my eyes. The GPL has become the new safe harbor for companies who don't want to play in the open source world. Do you really think Sun is GPLing Java because they think it is the right thing to do? The answer might surprise you; they are doing it under pressure from investors because they are not making money. Now how do you give something away but not really? Exactly, Copyrights + GPL. What a fantastic combination! You get inherent patent protection because no one can use your code and copyrights take care of the rest. Now Sun gets to shut up the open source world; hey we "gave" you (some) of our code now didn't we? And they get to pretend to be open source friendly to boot! The GPL hippies are beat at their own game :-) The GPL being used to protect companies and IP! Oh the irony makes me tingle. > > > You seem to be happy with signing NDAs. If the result is a > > readable and understandable GPL'ed driver, companies will be even less > > motivated to release programming documentation. This will lead to a > > GPL-lock-in since you simply replace the vendor not willing to share > > specifications with an NDA'ed GPL developer not willing to share those, > > but GPL code only. > > Well, as my goal is to have a GPL driver for everything, I don't see how > this can hurt :) Sounds like shortsightedness to me. Works for me! Didn't your mommy, or government, tell you to share with others? > > Now others can have different goals, and that's great and fine. I'm not > saying you can't work on something if you wish to do so. > > But for you to try to tell me that I shouldn't work to achive my goal, > as it somehow conflicts with your goals, is pretty rude, don't you > think? I am pretty sure your goals are very much the same. Do a s/GPL/BSD/g > > There is no reason you can not extend the same kind of offer to > companies to help your project achieve success. I can't. I am not for sale for some shinny pebbles. > > > This is not about freedom but about prostitution. > > I'm sorry you feel this way. I am sorry you don't see the damage you are causing. It does illustrate the linux mentality and standards. > > *plonk* More appropriate would be "dee dee dee"
From: Theo de Raadt [15] [email blocked] Subject: Re: Free Linux Driver Development! Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 02:51:31 -0700 > I'm guessing that you did not read the followup FAQ about the program > at: > http://www.kroah.com/log/linux/free_drivers_faq.html [16] > > Please see the final question and answer on that page. It is a fucking farce. You are trying to make sure that maintainers of code -- ie. any random joe who wants to improve the code in the future -- has LESS ACCESS to docs later on because someone signed an NDA to write it in the first place. You are making a very big mistake. I have been fighting against this for nearly a decade. I don't know what you signed an NDA for in the past, but I can ASSURE YOU THAT OTHER PEOPLE WITHOUT THE DOCS CANNOT FIX THE BUGS IN THOSE DRIVERS SO THEY SUCK MORE THAN DRIVERS WRITTEN WITH FULLY OPEN DOCS. PERIOD. You cannot FAQ that problem out of existance. It is people like you who are closed.
Related Links:
- Archive of above thread [17]
- KernelTrap interview with Theo de Raadt [18]