OpenBSD: Trying To Contact Texas Instruments

Submitted by Jeremy
on October 26, 2004 - 7:29pm

Ryan McBride [interview] explained on the OpenBSD -misc mailing list, "we'd like to support the Texas Instruments ACX100 802.11b wireless chipset (DLink DWL-520+, DWL-650+, and others), but we can't include a working driver without the firmware binary blob, which is available but has a restrictive license. We have tried to contact TI, through all the channels available to us. They have not even replied to our mail." Ryan goes on to request that the OpenBSD community help by expressing their concerns to the company as consumers, including a copy of a letter he sent to a list of contacts within the Texas Instruments wireless department.

OpenBSD creator Theo de Raadt [interview] pointed out that this same tactic has been successful many times, specifically mentioning about six years ago when it was employed to obtain documentation for Adaptec's scsi chips. He goes on to explain:

"In this case, we are not asking TI for documentation for their boards. A driver already exists. I believe it was reverse engineered by some Linux people, and BSD work is in progress. We just want to discuss with TI what licensing changes might be possible so that the firmware for their cards can be included in Open Source operating system releases. Having to install a firmware file only found on a CDROM sold with the card after install is crazy."


From: Ryan McBride [email blocked]
To:  misc
Subject: ACX100 Firmware Licensing
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 16:33:49 +0000

We'd like to support the Texas Instruments ACX100 802.11b wireless
chipset (DLink DWL-520+, DWL-650+, and others), but we can't include a
working driver without the firmware binary blob, which is available but
has a restrictive license.  We have tried to contact TI, through all the
channels available to us.  They have not even replied to our mail.

We are simply trying to have a frank discussion with the right people,
and noone inside TI thus far is helping us find the right people.
Perhaps you -- as consumers -- can convince them to talk to us?

Any other contacts you might have at TI would also be helpful.

Bill Carney [email blocked] +1 707 521 3069
Mr Taketo Fukui [email blocked] 81-3-4331-2060
Dr John T Coffey [email blocked] +1 707 284 2224
Mr Srikanth Gummadi [email blocked] +1 707 284 2209
Dr Srinath Hosur [email blocked] (214) 480-4432
Dr Jie Liang [email blocked] (214) 480-4105
Mr Joe Mueller [email blocked] 858 646 3358
Mr Lior Ophir [email blocked] (972) 9 970-6542
Dr Stephen Pope [email blocked] (510) 841-8315 
Mr Yoram Solomon [email blocked] (408) 965-2196
Tim Riker [email blocked]
DuVal, Mary" [email blocked]
Anand Dabak [email blocked]
"Anand G. Dabak" [email blocked]
Tim Schmidl [email blocked]
Sean Coffey [email blocked]
Srikanth Gummadi [email blocked]
Srinath Hosur [email blocked]
Muhammad Ikram [email blocked]
Joseph Mueller [email blocked]
Lior Ophir [email blocked]
Stephen Pope [email blocked]
Ian Sherlock [email blocked]
Manoneet Singh [email blocked]
Richar Williams [email blocked]
Hirohisa Yamaguchi [email blocked]


----- Forwarded message from Ryan McBride [email blocked] -----

From: Ryan McBride [email blocked]
Subject: ACX100 Firmware Licensing

Greetings

Since I do not know which one of you to contact, I am contacting all
of you in the hopes that someone can redirect me to the responsible
party who can help me.

I am contacting on behalf of the open source operating system called
OpenBSD, but the message applies to all of the other open source
operating systems (Linux, the other BSD's, etc).

In open source operating systems the support for some 802.11 devices,
drivers such as TIs ACX100 chip, is lagging because the vendors are
taking rather restrictive approaches regarding their technology.
We have begun working on a driver for this chip, but it will be crippled
in our operating system due to the absence of a freely available
firmware image.


Our policy is as follows: We will include a firmware from a vendor if it
is freely redistributable.  It can be a binary blob of data.  It must be
copyrighted, of course, but that is in the interest of the vendor.

Our user community is very compatibility driven in their purchasing
decisions; they seek out the components that are stable and well
supported, and it is not the ACX100 varients that they will select.
Even if a free driver exists, they will avoid these cards since the
firmware is not included in the operating system, so you are selling
fewer cards than you could.  I don't know if the open source operating
systems are rising as much some of the press leads us to believe, but if
they are, you can no longer afford to turn your back on a fickle and
technically savvy community.

In the past, vendors have gotten by because there were no options, but
now that some have begun opening up with freely licensed firmware and
usable technical documentation, open source users have a choice, and
they will be chosing the best supported cards, ie those from vendors who
cooperate with the open source projects.

There is another threat to your business model of remaining closed.
Some vendors like RealTek and Ralink have come out with fully documented
chipsets.  Even Intel's Centrino-associated chipsets are now fully
documented, and Cisco's remain documented.  And of course we fully
support the old Lucent, Prism, and Symbol devices.

Texas Instruments can avoid getting sidelined in the open source market,
by working with us to release the firmware in a way we can use it.

Other companies that have met with the same firmware choices?

Qlogic ISP scsi/fiberchannel PCI cards
3com Ethernet cards that do IPSEC offloading
Adaptec
Intel 100mbit card firmware upgrades for bugs
NCR for their scsi products

There are about 20 other smaller companies on the list too.

This is a copyright notice from a Qlogic SCSI card firmware:

 * Copyright (C) 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000 Qlogic, Inc.
 * All rights reserved.
 *
 * Redistribution and use in source and binary forms are permitted provided
 * that the following conditions are met:
 * 1. Redistribution of source code must retain the above copyright
 *    notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer.
 * 2. Redistribution in binary form must reproduce the above copyright
 *    notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the
 *    documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution.
 * 3. The name of the author may not be used to endorse or promote products
 *    derived from this software without specific prior written permission
 *
 * THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE AUTHOR ``AS IS'' AND ANY EXPRESS OR
 * IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES
 * OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE DISCLAIMED.
 * IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHOR BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT,
 * INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT
 * NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE,
 * DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION) HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY
 * THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT
 * (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE OF
 * THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE.


Four years ago the open source community told Qlogic that they had to
make their firmware free, or the driver would be deleted from the
various operating systems.  They resisted us.  The driver was deleted
from a couple of operating systems.  A few days later they contacted
us again to make the firmware free, and the driver was re-added.  We
told our users what was going on, and told them who to talk to.

Five years ago, Adaptec was refusing to give us documentation for
their scsi cards.  We worked persistantly to build up communication
with Adaptec and were shunned.  So we gave a list of contacts (much
like the cc: list you see above to our user community).  Our users
contacted 40 email addresses at Adaptec.  A few days later Adaptec
mailed us 2 of every cards they made, along with 2 copies of the
manuals for every chipset they made.  And we wrote support for all
their devices, and they have sold thousands and thousands of cards as
a result.

After Qlogic and Adaptec started giving documentation to, all the other
vendors stepped into line very quickly.

The same thing happened with Ethernet chipsets after Taiwanese companies
started making DEC Tulip semi-clones.  The market for secrets fell
apart, price and the customer rule now.

We hope to see TI release a set of ACX100 firmware images with
a copyright notice as shown above.  We can talk about it.  We know how
to craft a copyright notice that will be in your interests, and also
will be sufficient for the full range of Open Source project requirements.

Otherwise vendors who have opened their firmware and/or documentation,
are going to eat into your business, or seen another way, you will lose
a business opportunity.

In a few days I will be giving the list of contact information to our
user community -- please consider them your customers, your potential
customers, or your lost customers.

If I am not convincing enough, perhaps they can be.

-Ryan

--
Ryan McBride, OpenBSD Project
[email blocked]

----- End forwarded message -----


From: Theo de Raadt [email blocked] Subject: Re: ACX100 Firmware Licensing Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 11:05:52 -0600 > We'd like to support the Texas Instruments ACX100 802.11b wireless > chipset (DLink DWL-520+, DWL-650+, and others), but we can't include a > working driver without the firmware binary blob, which is available but > has a restrictive license. We have tried to contact TI, through all the > channels available to us. They have not even replied to our mail. > > We are simply trying to have a frank discussion with the right people, > and noone inside TI thus far is helping us find the right people. > Perhaps you -- as consumers -- can convince them to talk to us? > > Any other contacts you might have at TI would also be helpful. > > Bill Carney [email blocked] +1 707 521 3069 > Mr Taketo Fukui [email blocked] 81-3-4331-2060 > Dr John T Coffey [email blocked] +1 707 284 2224 > Mr Srikanth Gummadi [email blocked] +1 707 284 2209 > Dr Srinath Hosur [email blocked] (214) 480-4432 > Dr Jie Liang [email blocked] (214) 480-4105 > Mr Joe Mueller [email blocked] 858 646 3358 > Mr Lior Ophir [email blocked] (972) 9 970-6542 > Dr Stephen Pope [email blocked] (510) 841-8315 > Mr Yoram Solomon [email blocked] (408) 965-2196 > Tim Riker [email blocked] > DuVal, Mary" [email blocked] > Anand Dabak [email blocked] > "Anand G. Dabak" [email blocked] > Tim Schmidl [email blocked] > Sean Coffey [email blocked] > Srikanth Gummadi [email blocked] > Srinath Hosur [email blocked] > Muhammad Ikram [email blocked] > Joseph Mu[email blocked] > Stephen Pope [email blocked] > Ian Sherlock [email blocked] > Manoneet Singh [email blocked] > Richar Williams [email blocked] > Hirohisa Yamaguchi [email blocked] For those of you new to this type of (shall we call it) activism, let me tell you something. I think 6 years ago we asked our user community to contact Adaptec in the same way. We had been requesting documentation for their scsi chips, and Adaptec had been giving us the round-about for over a year. It was going nowhere. We asked our users to email the 30-some email addresses which we had attempted dialogue with over the year. Five hours later I had a phone call from Adaptec asking me to stop our users from mailing them. I said it was `beyond my control'. They said that a few of the people were HR staff. I said it was `beyond my control'. Next day, Adaptec asked for two of our addresses. They express shipped boxes containing a full compliment of cards, as well as documentation for all their chips. As a result today you will find that Adaptec scsi support in OpenBSD is solid. (Similar approaches with other vendors have had impact as well; OpenBSD -- and other systems -- are better as a result). The QLogic story is similar. In this case, we are not asking TI for documentation for their boards. A driver already exists. I believe it was reverse engineered by some Linux people, and BSD work is in progress. We just want to discuss with TI what licensing changes might be possible so that the firmware for their cards can be included in Open Source operating system releases. Having to install a firmware file only found on a CDROM sold with the card after install is crazy. These companies are huge and they shelter their internal decision makers; even after weeks orr months of effort it is still impossible for us to talk to the right people, and even then, they try to ignore us because they do not think our concerns are important enough. As consumers, you can change that. It worked before. Worth trying, no? Just tell the right TI people to come talking to me. Thanks.
From: [email blocked] Subject: Re: ACX100 Firmware Licensing Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 14:13:31 -0500 On Tue Oct 26, 2004 at 11:05:52AM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote: > For those of you new to this type of (shall we call it) activism, > let me tell you something. > > I think 6 years ago we asked our user community to contact Adaptec in > the same way. We had been requesting documentation for their scsi > chips, and Adaptec had been giving us the round-about for over a year. > It was going nowhere. We asked our users to email the 30-some email > addresses which we had attempted dialogue with over the year. Five > hours later I had a phone call from Adaptec asking me to stop our > users from mailing them. I said it was `beyond my control'. They > said that a few of the people were HR staff. I said it was `beyond my > control'. Next day, Adaptec asked for two of our addresses. They > express shipped boxes containing a full compliment of cards, as well > as documentation for all their chips. As a result today you will find > that Adaptec scsi support in OpenBSD is solid. > > (Similar approaches with other vendors have had impact as well; > OpenBSD -- and other systems -- are better as a result). The QLogic > story is similar. > > In this case, we are not asking TI for documentation for their boards. > A driver already exists. I believe it was reverse engineered by some > Linux people, and BSD work is in progress. We just want to discuss > with TI what licensing changes might be possible so that the firmware > for their cards can be included in Open Source operating system > releases. Having to install a firmware file only found on a CDROM > sold with the card after install is crazy. > > These companies are huge and they shelter their internal decision > makers; even after weeks orr months of effort it is still impossible > for us to talk to the right people, and even then, they try to ignore > us because they do not think our concerns are important enough. > > As consumers, you can change that. It worked before. Worth trying, > no? > > Just tell the right TI people to come talking to me. > > Thanks. I know that you probably don't need to hear from everyone, but I wanted to let you know that they have been contacted by me and forwarded to you. I think this is a great thing and will hopefully produce results similar to that stated above. I must say there have been many times that I've wanted to send off a letter about a closed source product but have never really known what exactly to say. This letter from Ryan McBride is a great example and will provide a wonderful template for future 'mass email campaigns'. Is there a list of products that we should send this too? Can people post a list of products they would like to see? Ones in particular? I am going to scour the archives looking for some, then I'll contact them. Thanks for all of your hard work. Proud to be an OpenBSD user, -- -Asenchi ---------------------------------------------------------- - ICQ: 56039913 <-> AIM: asenchi <-> PGP: 1024D/65724DA8 - - IRC: Asenchi irc.freenode.net #asenchi, #rweather - ----------------------------------------------------------
From: Eric White [email blocked] Subject: Re: ACX100 Firmware Licensing Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:22:56 -0400 I am somewhat new to OpenBSD, and not entirely sure that I agree with this tactic. I realize the Catch-22 nature of the situation, but might there be a better way then spamming a handful of persons who potentially have nothing to do with the product.
From: Theo de Raadt [email blocked] Subject: Re: ACX100 Firmware Licensing Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:42:26 -0600 > I am somewhat new to OpenBSD, and not > entirely sure that I agree with this tactic. I > realize the Catch-22 nature of the situation, > but might there be a better way then > spamming a handful of persons who potentially > have nothing to do with the product. All of those people work in their wireless division. After more than 10 days of mails and voicemails those people have not redirected us to the right person. In mails they were warned that if we were not contacted, this would go out to the community. Now it turns out that some members of the community are entirely thankless for the efforts we put in to write a free operating system, but then we are used to that. And I mean slack jawed droolers like Eric White, apparently. There is no Catch-22.
From: [email blocked] Subject: TI and the community's request Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:05:13 -0500 Hello All, specifically the developers. The Senior Linux Technologist for TI visited the freenode openbsd channel just now. We spoke about the large amount of email he is receiving requesting the opening of the firmware. He was, obviously, upset with the tactics used and ask that we stop as no one will receive a response due to TI's legal department looking into the whole situation. He seems like a guy who is working to get some of these requests met, and would've responded earlier however was away on vacation. I told him that I would post to the list what he had to say as he is bound by the lawyers of TI not to 'officially' respond. I think some progress can still be made, but we should take into consideration his request to stop and see what he has to say. Just wanted to pass this on. I hope progress can be made in this conversation. I don't want this to be perceived as any type of official response, just thought it worth posting here for everyone to see. Thanks all. -- -Asenchi ---------------------------------------------------------- - ICQ: 56039913 <-> AIM: asenchi <-> PGP: 1024D/65724DA8 - - IRC: Asenchi irc.freenode.net #asenchi, #rweather - ----------------------------------------------------------
From: Theo de Raadt [email blocked] Subject: Re: TI and the community's request Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:28:38 -0600 > Hello All, specifically the developers. > > The Senior Linux Technologist for TI visited the freenode openbsd channel just > now. We spoke about the large amount of email he is receiving requesting the > opening of the firmware. Then I guess he should have responded to our mails and calls over the last week. > He was, obviously, upset with the tactics used and ask that we stop as no > one will receive a response due to TI's legal department looking into the > whole situation. Then I guess he should have responded to our mails and calls over the last week. > He seems like a guy who is working to get some of these requests met, and > would've responded earlier however was away on vacation. I told him that I > would post to the list what he had to say as he is bound by the lawyers of TI > not to 'officially' respond. Well, he is more than welcome to give me a call, or respond to any of the mails that have been sent previously. > I think some progress can still be made, but we should take into consideration > his request to stop and see what he has to say. No thanks. I urge everyone to keep prodding TI to contact me so that a dialogue can start. Showing up on a channel and asking people to stop mailing... that is not a dialogue.
From: Lars Hansson [email blocked] Subject: Re: TI and the community's request Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 04:45:14 +0800 [email blocked] wrote: > He was, obviously, upset with the tactics used and ask that we stop as no > one will receive a response due to TI's legal department looking into the > whole situation. So, let me get this straight... He can go to an irc channel and complain about the mail load but he cant send a single reply email stating something like "our laywers are looking into it. These are the people you should really contact: <list of email addresses>". That's just bizarre and insanely stupid. --- Lars Hansson
From: Theo de Raadt [email blocked] Subject: Re: TI and the community's request Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:48:55 -0600 > [email blocked] wrote: > > He was, obviously, upset with the tactics used and ask that we stop as no > > one will receive a response due to TI's legal department looking into the > > whole situation. > > So, let me get this straight... > He can go to an irc channel and complain about the mail load but he cant > send a single reply email stating something like "our laywers are > looking into it. These are the people you should really contact: > <list of email addresses>". > That's just bizarre and insanely stupid. Yup, no contact yet. So, for now, it appears like the email addresses that the TI consumers are using to correspond with TI are the best ones we have.

Related Links:

Theo de Raadt

Anonymous
on
October 26, 2004 - 8:32pm

Man, Theo de Raadt is sort of an a**hole. Sorry for not replying really on topic, but this exchange kind of drives home the point. I guess that's why he couldn't get along with the NetBSD folks.

Theo

keithmo
on
October 27, 2004 - 1:28am

As a colleague of mine says, "It's OK if they call you an asshole, as long as they say it with awe."

That said, I would not characterize Theo's behavior in this instance as being that of an asshole. As I understand the story, he gave TI multiple opportunities to respond. They did not, so Theo & Co resorted to "consumer activism" that has been successful in the past.

The ball is TI's court.

He is an asshole

Anonymous
on
October 27, 2004 - 2:30am

And I think OP referred to this comment by Theo:

"And I mean slack jawed droolers like Eric White, apparently."

Eric White is apparently a "slack jawed drooler" because he dared to question the effectiveness of the email-campaign.

don't care if the pestering works

Anonymous
on
October 27, 2004 - 1:57am

I own one of those bloody cards because it was supposed to run fine in Linux, and now after about 1 year of owning it, it actually works pretty good. That firmware driver issue can be amended somewhat with the scripts included, but it were immensely better indeed if the whole thing was just included there in the driver, because then we could count on having that support far into future.

But there is nothing WE can do...

Anonymous
on
October 27, 2004 - 7:34am

If I was Adaptec and got the response "there is nothing I can do" from an open source "leader", I would give the same response: "Mr. de Raadt, there is nothing we can do." I would then get my sysadmin on the horn and start the blocking of email for the innocent bystanders.

The unfortunate fact is that they not represent their projects, but also most other active projects.

treatment of people

undefined
on
October 27, 2004 - 7:20am

OpenBSD users: a user expresses doubt, not condemnation, and theo insults the fellow, resorting to name calling.

companies: if i was to mail bomb theo and other OpenBSD developers and encourage others to do the same, posting email addresses and lengthy form letters, theo would be all wound up in a tizzy. he would be ranting and raving about it, speaking about how it was wasting his time, bandwidth, and other resources. but yet he personally encourages this behavior.

theo, let me introduce you to micro economics 101. most of western society lives in a free market. consumers vote with their dollar. don't like a product, don't buy it. can't find a product you like, create it yourself. bought a product you don't like? tough. in this day and age of the internet and widespread open source adoption, ignorance is not an excuse for buying an unsupported product. stupidity is about the only valid excuse, and most people avoid using that excuse.

and in today's global information sharing, the TI firmware will be available forever on some .ru or .hu website in countries where patents and copyrights are either not valid or not respected (for better or worse). not available in a default installation of OpenBSD? OpenBSD users should be use to useless default OpenBSD installations (as there are no useful services available in the default install it's easy to maintain that outlandish security claim of your's; a base install of debian is as secure and just as useless).

and the only awe i have when speaking of theo is the "wow, some people really do prove the stereotype that geeks are totally socially inept."

go ahead Jeremy, mark me as troll. but at least make it "informative troll". ;)

> not available in a default

Anonymous
on
October 28, 2004 - 7:10am

> not available in a default installation of OpenBSD? OpenBSD users
> should be use to useless default OpenBSD installations (as there are
> no useful services available in the default install it's easy to
> maintain that outlandish security claim of your's; a base install of
> debian is as secure and just as useless).

why do people have to pretend they know what they're talking about instead of keeping quiet?

if you think openbsd's security is limited to leaving services off by default, you have a lot reading to do.

Re: not available in a default

Cabal
on
October 28, 2004 - 7:18am

Thanks "Anonymous". Unfortunately, all of his claims are valid concerns. Thank you for "pretending they know what they're talking about," though.

yeah sure. "here, i turned al

Anonymous
on
October 28, 2004 - 9:39am

yeah sure. "here, i turned all my services off. my systems is equivalent to openbsd now!".

pfft.

OpenBSD security

Anonymous
on
October 28, 2004 - 10:15am

A troll is a troll is a troll. I'm such a fool for biting this bait ..

Comparing Debian to OpenBSD in ANY light is fueled by pure ignorence .. W^X, propolice, systrace, stackghost, stackgap's are just a FEW things done by default that are not done by anyone else with near zero cost to the systems performance.

Only a moron would care about what services are enabled by default. You do realize it takes literally 15-20 seconds to install a 'usefull service' out of the ports/packages tree eh?

I don't think anyone in this community cares whether you agree / don't agree with Mr. de Raadt's tactics. Shut up.

Please mark parent as "Troll with a lot of homework to do".

StatiK76

reply for off-topic name-calling anonymous troll

undefined
on
October 29, 2004 - 8:28am

oh great, i get trolled by an anonymous troll who's too lazy to register. ;-)

oh, yeah, right, you signed your name to the bottom of your post. that's a great form of verification! *sheesh* it works wonders for me too (see below).

actually, your problem is that you didn't even read my post.

i mentioned openbsd's lack of default services specifically, AND ONLY, in reference to their claim of "Only one remote hole in the default install, in more than 8 years!" that's because openbsd enables no useful services by default. yeah, openssh is really useful by itself... if all you do is sell shell accounts. but then you are opening yourself to local exploits, which openbsd doesn't prominently brag about, and probably for good reason.

and my comment was on-topic because users already have to prep an openbsd machine to make it useful after install, so what's the big deal about having to install a binary firmware blob? i would somewhat agree with them if they were arguing about the fact that the firmware is binary and not open source. but they are instead complaining about being unable to distribute the firmware, when the buying public should have already received the firmware when they bought the card. it's probably even available from the hardware manufacturers' websites (wrapped in a windows executable for driver installation). this is just an opportunity for theo to act the fool in public.

openbsd has by default some great kernel security features, but how does that make the machine any more useful by default? it doesn't. it's a great starting point, but it's useless by itself. so what's the point of openbsd tauting its "don't forget to read the fine print" security record? so they can divert some attention away from theo's ignorant ranting & raving.

i agree: it only takes a few seconds to install a service, but you've just voided your "Only one remote hole in the default install, in more than 8 years!" warranty. what kind of warranty is that? i have a bridge to sell you (just as long as you don't ever try to enforce your ownership of it)!

don't get me wrong, i respect openbsd (only on technical merit), but theo should stick to coding and avoid public relations.

the funniest part? notice how all the anonymous trolls come out to reply to my original comment, but not a single one responds to the majority of my post: theo's disrespectful actions (i dare somebody to argue that theo was respectful, or even humane, to the newbie openbsd user), the economics of the situation, and the irrelevance of this whole situation because the driver and firmware are already legally available (just not in the default install of openbsd). not surprised that trolls can't participate in intelligent debate with appropriate replies.

StatiK76 ;-)

who is the fool?

Anonymous
on
October 29, 2004 - 11:26am

> this is just an opportunity for theo to act the fool in public.

is it? really? strange... it seems that the efforts are paying off.

http://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article&sid=20041028234237
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=openbsd-misc&m=109899939518417&w=2

You're on a hiding to nothing unfortunately.

Anonymous
on
October 29, 2004 - 2:30pm

Theo has always been a total arsehole, that's why he was frozen out of the NetBSD project. Don't take my word for it, peruse Theos own log of the mail messages that document his alienation from the NetBSD project. Only someone as arrogant as de Raadt could post that thinking it would vindicate his actions, especially when you look at the mailing list archives. If you do take the time to look at the archives you'll see that Theos characterisation of one of the users of the OS he works on as a "slack jawed drooler" is par for the course.

At the end of the day, OpenBSD has offered little to the BSD world, while benefitting greatly from the work that others have done on FreeBSD and NetBSD. SMP in OpenBSD? Belittled as an esoteric feature by de Raadt until someone bothered to port it from NetBSD. Then it was all "wow, look at our SMP support".

Chris

Uh?

Anonymous
on
October 29, 2004 - 9:42pm

> At the end of the day, OpenBSD has offered little to the BSD world

Erm...

- pf, now the de facto *bsd packet filter
- openssh, which every unix system out there uses
- strlcpy() and strlcat(), which has been adopted by everyone (except glibc, for no good reason)
- carp
- openntp
- gcc with propolice
- w^x

This is just to name some. I think it is pretty clear the openbsd's work benefits not only the bsd community, but *everyone*.

Real *free* software that benefits everyone. This is to contrast with the GPL which only benefits GPL'd software.

Clarification

Anonymous
on
October 30, 2004 - 2:56am

pf, now the de facto *bsd packet filter

Only in OpenBSD. It's optional in FreeBSD and a partly functional port exists for NetBSD if you apply a patch. pf was adopted by OpenBSD (it already existed prior to that adoption) because Theo threw one of his bad tempered tantrums at the author of ipfilter.

openssh, which every unix system out there uses

A version of the original SSH, heavily dependent on OpenSSL, and which has suffered from a number of serious bugs - which has left many wondering how good the OpenBSD code audits really are.

strlcpy() and strlcat()

Wow. two half dozen line functions that defy Theos regular assertion that bad code is only produced by those who don't understand the tools (including library functions) that are available to them. I'll stick to strcpy and strcat thanks, as I understand their limitations and only use them in situations where those limitations cannot be exploited.

gcc with propolice

Originally developed at IBM for Linux and FreeBSD.

w^x

Developed by Solar Designer for Linux from what I remember.

Which leaves openntp and carp. So maybe I'd consider OpenBSD for my routers, except that it crashes under very high loads.

Re: Clarification

Anonymous
on
October 30, 2004 - 4:06pm

> Only in OpenBSD. It's optional in FreeBSD and a partly functional
> port exists for NetBSD

there is no question on pf's superiority. it is just a matter of time for it to be the default packet filter on all bsds.

> A version of the original SSH, heavily dependent on OpenSSL, and
> which has suffered from a number of serious bugs - which has left
> many wondering how good the OpenBSD code audits really are.

and that's why you're using telnet, right? come on. show me *one*
example of software that has never had bugs.

> I'll stick to strcpy and strcat thanks, as I understand their
> limitations and only use them in situations where those limitations
> cannot be exploited.

yeah, because you never make mistakes. thus you always use the version that is harder, to prove your 1337ness.

> Originally developed at IBM for Linux and FreeBSD.

and heavily patched and adopted by default on openbsd (and now dragonfly).

> Developed by Solar Designer for Linux from what I remember.

uh? you need a memory upgrade.

this kind of activism is good economics

unsubtle
on
October 29, 2004 - 7:58pm

of course, if you don't like a product, don't buy it. but how are manufacturers to know what people want? simple: tell them.

it looks a little odd, only because it's relatively unusual. mostly manufacturers are telling people what they should want, when there ought to be a dialogue. openbsd's tactics make a refreshing change.

i'll agree that theo doesn't appear to have great social skills. so how come that plenty of top developers choose to work on the project he leads? do you think it could be something to do with an ethos that values getting things done more highly than whining on mailing lists/bulletin boards? (/me disappears in a puff of self-referential logic.)

I bought the ACX100-chipset based because support was promised

Anonymous
on
October 28, 2004 - 11:46pm

only that the support never arrived. As far as I'm concerned, TI / D-Link / whoever peed into my eye. I think a little bit of fuck-you-too, even if a few years late, only sets the scores right.

Hey, give TI's Senior Linux Technologist a break

Mr_Z
on
October 27, 2004 - 8:15am

I work at TI. (Do not bombard me with requests, as I will promptly ignore you. I don't work with the WLAN guys, though I do see them in the halls occasionally.) Legal disclaimer: I don't speak for TI here, and I'm not breaching any confidences in this post.

TI's historically uptight about any of its IP leaving the company. Given that TI makes quite a bit of money from its patent portfolio and IP licensing deals, the entire TI Legal culture has a pretty big impedance mismatch with open source. As Linux makes its way into the embedded space, though, TI's having to learn how to work with open source in a way that does not threaten their current way of doing business. I'll refrain from editorializing about that.

TI's still wrapping its head around Linux. Asking them to consider all open OSes with high priority is probably asking a bit much. Once they figure out a solution for Linux, in all likelihood it'll work for all open OSes in some way. Will those OSes get much recognition from TI? No. Direct TI support? No. Something that works? Probably.

Look on the bright side: At least someone here IS talking to TI Legal to get everything cleared.

request

Anonymous
on
October 27, 2004 - 9:36am

plz fix for theo openbsd kthnxbbq.

opinion

Anonymous
on
October 28, 2004 - 6:29pm

i try to understand menkind. even de raad.
but i don't think blackmailing companies is the right way to convince people to understand and support the open souce community.

While you may not agree with

Anonymous
on
October 29, 2004 - 9:55pm

While you may not agree with the tactics in this case, you do us all a disservice by using the term "blackmail" to describe something so trivial. While using terms like assult, rape, and blackmail lend impotace to an argument, it lessens the effect these words have when discussing the real thing.

That said, "Nagging" TI is one of the best, if not only effective method of getting them to cooperate. The tactic isn't necessarily to email these people into submission, it's to get them to pass the demands upstram to avenues that are not outwardly available to someone outside the company (the lawyers in this case). These demands have to make it into the hands of the people who can do something about it, to whom we have no direct access to.

I applaud the submitters efforts. My only request to everyone is that the e-mails stay polite/corteous.

Thank you for your time,
Frank Russo

Broadcom chipset

Anonymous
on
November 3, 2004 - 8:31am

Wireless devices based on Broadcom chipsets such as the BCM94506 and its relatives are very common in current laptops. I wonder if a similar campaign could help with the development of functional drivers for those too.

Håkan Wikström (too lazy to register)

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.