Dear Community
I am in Columbia. Drinking local coffee (yes Paola your coffee is the

best in the world) and thinking with the early morning clarity only

those blessed with jag-lag can understand.
Yesterday was an amazing day. After a morning walk around the government

buildings and many beautiful museums of Bogota, we went up into the

mountainous region of Monserrate. To get to the top of this cityscape

icon and pilgrimage destination you have three choices: A gravity

defying train, a somewhat stable cable car, or climbing. Pilgrims prefer

the latter; but, perhaps due to the long delays of FreeRunner, my sense

of urgency even here was overwhelming, I chose the cable car.
For almost two years now I have told the story of Openmoko. Ascending

that mountain provided me with a brief moment where, like my new view of

Bogota, I was able to look at things from the outside. A moment long

enough to rethink the way in which I told our story. I realized that

evangelizing the impact of digital technologies is not enough. We must

take charge of them. The story of Openmoko needs to be a story of us

changing our "open source reality". For this is the opportunity

presented to us now.
Think: The collapse of so many hi tech companies on our stock exchanges

has humbled many. Creators within the digital world -- no matter how

novel and exciting -- will have no value unless they impact the material

world directly.
So this is my call to all of us today. Our work must begin to impact the

material world. We have the tools. We have the knowledge. We must use

our knowledge to transcend the digital world.
People use heroes as touchstones to help them surmount their challenges.

John Maeda has been a hero of mine ever since I first discovered my love

for combining art and computers. I encourage you all to learn more about

this incredibly creative person. His "Laws of Simplicity" would be a

good place to start. For projects like ours, these are indeed guiding

lights.
Let me sh...
[ message continues ]

OF COURSE THEY ARE!!!! :-) Carsten has made it very clear on this same

list within the last few days that all the major libraries - GTK+2,
All the libraries are there. All toolkits. All languages(*). It is

just as hackable as it was. 
"Make of it what you will shall be the whole of thy law".
Ian Darwin
* C and C++ and sh ship; many others available but you may have to "opkg install" them.

For Java(tm) install Jalimo. Other languages available. Your language may vary.
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On Fri, 27 Jun 2008 00:56:58 -0400

Sean Moss-Pultz <sean@openmoko.com> wrote:

[...]
Coming into this thread late, as I was travelling. Firstly, thank

you for a nicely-written, and passionate posting. I am a little

curious, though, what exactly do you mean by the "material world"?

From part of your message (the reference to companies collapsing

on stock exchanges), this seems to be largely a definition based

on financial health, though the rest of your message seems to

indicate otherwise.
I am also of the view that FOSS developers need to get out of the

software ghetto, and take a larger view of the world, and the

possible impact on the world of the software, and hardware that we

jointly produce. In my opinion, FOSS has managed to overturn

"traditional" thinking in the world of software because it was not

considered a significant-enough threat to entrenched interests

till it was too late. We have the possibility of making such efforts

count in ways which really make a difference to people in the

world, but that work will be much harder, both because of more

external opposition, and because of our own failure to visualise

[...]
(I will take the liberty of snipping your well-reasoned points---which

 are already being followed-up to, in order to add a perspective of

 my own, which comes from living in India, and working on localisation

 efforts in Indian languages.)
As many of you might be aware, mobile phones are a huge success story

in India. Currently, India has the fastest-growing population of mobile

users, and it is likely to remain that way for a while, as the per-capita

usage is well behind even countries like China. This revolution is

happening not only among the rich, as poorer sections of the society have

been among the first to appreciate the cost/benefit ratio of a mobile

phone. I have personally seen rickshaw pullers using mobiles. To my mind,

a killer application on mobiles in India will be support for Indian

languages on the hardware, in a manner transpar...
[ message continues ]

Sean,
I'm _really_ glad you enjoyed our Colombian Coffee, our food, and I

hope you can keep in touch with the spirits that live in our

landscapes. I'm sure that those spirits are friends of the "spirit

that lives in the computer" [1].
[1] (I really like what Alan Perlis said)
I think encrypted messages are crucial for freedom. I also think most

people don't know how easy it is for others to see what they send

through the networks. I cannot wait to see those Encrypted messages

traveling free through _their_ networks to deliver _our_ messages.
Regards,

Nelson.-  (one very excited (amateur ^ 3))
--

http://arhuaco.org
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That means:
- Phase out SMS in favour of IM (SMS char limit makes crypto hard, cheaper too)

- Use OTR with IM (http://otr.cypherpunks.ca)
I am not sure at the current state of IM clients, but there are

python bindings for OTR at http://pyotr.pentabarf.de/
I will go at it as soon as I can order my Freerunner in Canada
Paul
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Hmm, I'd personally like a good tor client on there.
Of course, tor also needs more relays :-P
Still, if we want real freedom, it's a step in the right direction.
--

H. Lally Singh

Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science

Virginia Tech
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Mmm.
Doesn't IM requiere permanent connection? For status updates, etc?
I'd like to know what you think about two things:
1) We know email is broken (at least unsafe and prone to spam)

2) What is the best alternative for this scenario? Is it really IM?

3) Are there other (IP-based) protocolos suitable for delivering the

encrypted messages?
Regards,

Nelson.-
--

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Not necessarily. A lot of us used IM back in the old dial-up days.
I've done a lot of thinking on this subject over the last several years

and tried several systems with my existing phone and GPRS connection.
If the IM protocol in use (I'm thinking XMPP) supports offline storage,

distributed servers, and connection encryption, and preferably a robust

message delivery system (e.g. requiring an ack for messages sent) then

it should be usable, provided the phone has a data connection. It

could/would shorten battery runtime keeping the GPRS up all the time,

but a lot of that depends on other power-saving in the device.
If the user has very limited data connection (e.g. only WWW (Port 80),

and MAIL (Ports 25, 110, 143, 587, 993) then a proxy of some kind would

be necessary. The proxy would need to maintain the user's login to the

IM network and provide storage of messages sent by the client program

(running on the phone).
For those with no data connections, something involving SMS (And

eventually MMS if/when it's ever ported) would need to be created. A lot

of provider IM programs (At least the ones I've used) rely on SMS to
Honestly, for the usage pattern I reckon most people will use (based on

my existing usage of SMS and the various people who I correspond with),

SMS is just phone-based IM, so extending real IM to the phone,

especially with an extensible format like XMPP can be a real boon.

E-mail is still (IMHO) a bit heavy (More than 1k in headers to deliver a

one-line message).
I don't remember right now if XMPP provides for a compressed transport,

but I do know that by default it encrypts the connection.
-KW
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On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 12:24:28 -0500
What do you mean about e-mail being broken? It can be encrypted much

more easily then most other ways of communications. We could just port

GPG on the OpenMoko. Spam is actually quite filterable. I think we

should go with e-mail as the main way of messaging. It's well

standardised and works with computers as well as phones. If we could

make GNU Privacy Guard transparent enough, it would also encourage

encryption usage among the users. Why re-invent the wheel?
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There is also a nice feature that could be used with SMS: imagine that

the SMS is automatically shortened (eg by abbreviating words and stuff

like that) than it's compressed before being sent; I tried once and

there should be libraries that could fit the "dictionary" needed for

extraction + 500 characters in 302 chars... It means 2 SMS instead of

3 or more :)
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there exists a similar application, done in (horrible dictu) j2me.

a german university of applied sciences, i think, created it.
but it still requires _both_ parties to have such a plugin installed.
http://kom.aau.dk/project/mobilephone/Documents/README-ENG.pdf
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it is exactly what we need :) we need to make people understand the

FreeRunner is unique, and can do things never imagined before!

If I was planning an advertisement campaign, one of the facts I would

focus is that the FreeRunner can be a USB host: this means using USB

drives (including cameras, mp3 readers, also external hard disks!).

No phone nor smartphone can do such a thing...

FreeRunner is special, it will not just "send" SMS, he will manipulate

SMS so you spend less money. Tell me what device is build for the user

spending less money on something :)
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you mean, upping the apparent nerdiness of its owners?

now they not only _speak_ incomprehensible but even send incomprehensible

sms ... :-)
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may be can use SMS control the remote NEO like send

"#neo_command shutdown -h now "

then the neo poweroff : )
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Something like this has been floating around the mailing list for months

(or more) now. Personally, I'm hoping that the SMS stack in FSO will

allow plugins to filter incoming SMS messages and provide a secure(ish)

functionality for something like this.
-KW
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that could be worriesome without some kind of id system to verify that the

sender is someone that should have that kind of control.
if a random person can send commands to the freerunner, it will be a security 
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Well, I figure that a list of trusted senders is absolutely needed :)
Anyway thanks Sean for your words!
--

Treviño's World - Life and Linux

http://www.3v1n0.net/
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i suspect that until one stick a computer on every lamp post in the world,

with a text to speech program that spills out every clear text message sendt

so that it can pick it up, people wont take notice.
they understand putting letters in envelopes, because thats something they can

see. but until you show them a packet sniffer, and explain that this can be

used on any part of that messages journey, they will not understand it for

electronic media.
hell, i wish that mail apps would come with a standard system for signing and

encryption. that would at least be a start. as long as people have to install

third party apps to get that feature, it will not be used...
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On 2008-06-27, Sean Moss-Pultz <sean@openmoko.com> wrote:

[snap]
You really know how to express yourself:)
I cannot see how other phone companies can be compared.

What I like so much about Openmoko, is that I am a part of it - that

it is (also) my project.
Openmoko will have success because they work very much for it.

The community will help making the software and come up with

ideas (by nagging or "spamming the mailing list" :) and you will

take the best ideas and make them real.
Keep making attractive hardware and the community will grow

and make the software needed:)
I hope Openmoko will be big enough to be able to "force" the

hardware manufactures into GPL. Maybe they realize that GPL

is not that bad, and that propritary drivers is far more expensive

(in support for all their customers).
We are all living on the same dream: the freedom to use the

hardware we own in the way we want. Openmoko is making

that dream come true.
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Subject: Re: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions

	Date: Mon 19 May 08 12:16:30PM -0400
He wrote about libraries, not about the phone/pim apps. Have the apps

been orphaned?
Those apps are the heart of the phone, and I would not want to have

C++/QT versions running on my phone.
Carlo
--

  *         Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte,

* K * Carlo E. Prelz - fluido@fluido.as             che bisogno ci sarebbe

  *               di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu)
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How do you not purchase a product from a man this eloquent?  Wish I had

$400.
-----Original Message-----

From: community-bounces@lists.openmoko.org

[mailto:community-bounces@lists.openmoko.org] On Behalf Of Sean Moss-Pultz

Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 9:57 PM

To: List for OpenMoko community discussion; announce@lists.openmoko.org

Subject: Let us impact the material world
Dear Community
I am in Columbia. Drinking local coffee (yes Paola your coffee is the

best in the world) and thinking with the early morning clarity only

those blessed with jag-lag can understand.
Yesterday was an amazing day. After a morning walk around the government

buildings and many beautiful museums of Bogota, we went up into the

mountainous region of Monserrate. To get to the top of this cityscape

icon and pilgrimage destination you have three choices: A gravity

defying train, a somewhat stable cable car, or climbing. Pilgrims prefer

the latter; but, perhaps due to the long delays of FreeRunner, my sense

of urgency even here was overwhelming, I chose the cable car.
For almost two years now I have told the story of Openmoko. Ascending

that mountain provided me with a brief moment where, like my new view of

Bogota, I was able to look at things from the outside. A moment long

enough to rethink the way in which I told our story. I realized that

evangelizing the impact of digital technologies is not enough. We must

take charge of them. The story of Openmoko needs to be a story of us

changing our "open source reality". For this is the opportunity

presented to us now.
Think: The collapse of so many hi tech companies on our stock exchanges

has humbled many. Creators within the digital world -- no matter how

novel and exciting -- will have no value unless they impact the material

world directly.
So this is my call to all of us today. Our work must begin to impact the

material world. We have the tools. We have the knowledge. We must use

our knowledge to transcend the digital world.
P...
[ message continues ]

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I really don't understand the sentiment there. If the app works well and

gets the job done, why does it matter what language it's written in or what

widget toolkit it uses? I could see not wanting a closed app on OM, but it

sounds like there is source available. Ideally, all interaction at the API

level could go through something like dbus and then you could write your

plugin in LISP or BASIC for all anyone else cares. I doubt we are there yet,

but it could be added as we go along.
Or, you could pick up the older GTK apps and finish them up. It sounds like

the shipping apps are a placeholder to get a nice working phone for shipping

Freerunner. It's an open platform, so switch them out if you want the other

ones. Or improve the new ones. Or write new ones from scratch in Ruby.

Whatever. :)
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<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 10:49 AM, Carlo E. Prelz &lt;<a href="mailto:fluido@fluido.as">fluido@fluido.as</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">

<br>

Those apps are the heart of the phone, and I would not want to have<br>

C++/QT versions running on my phone.</blockquote></div><br><br>I really don&#39;t understand the sentiment there. If the app works well and gets the job done, why does it matter what language it&#39;s written in or what widget toolkit it uses? I could see not wanting a closed app on OM, but it sounds like there is source available. Ideally, all interaction at the API level could go through something like dbus and then you could write your plugin in LISP or B...
[ message continues ]

Subject: Re: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions

	Date: lun 19 mag 08 11:10:50 -0600
There are two levels here. One is the ethically-justified desire to

run open software. The other one is the concrete possibility to dig

into the code and actually adapt the operativity of the code to your

specific needs. 
The first level is clearly satisfied.
With regards to the second one, things differ from person to

person. For most of its life, the openmoko project has been based on C

and GTK, which I happen to be reasonably versed in. The switch to QT

*requires* the abandoning of C in favour of C++, a language that I
This could come to be true, given enough free time. Nevertheless,

there is a big difference between having the core applications of a

phone maintained and updated by Openmoko and having to depend on my

scarce free time or other voluntary work for the same core apps.
Later on, if I read that the GTK apps are usable, I may eventually

decide to buy the phone. I just wanted to let Openmoko know that it is

because of this switch (which I only learned about yesterday) that I

won't be an early adopter.
Carlo
--

  *         Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte,

* K * Carlo E. Prelz - fluido@fluido.as             che bisogno ci sarebbe

  *               di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu)
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Gtk and C are things I personally find unsuitable for use.
So I'm getting mcclim and clisp running on the emulator and just using

that to write my applications (almost done even with ffi thanks to a

patch I received from an ARM architecture wizard; now I just need to

figure out how to automate builds of clisp because the final build

stage has to run on the target machine to generate the core image).
I bet you could spend a week or two and get KDE's automagic binding

generator programs to spit out C bindings if you really wanted. But
The Qtopia specific data formats are temporary until the

freesmartphone dbus services are ready. After that it won't matter

what GUI toolkit is in use; the actual applications for accessing

contacts and such then become trivial to write.
--

Lindsay (Carlton): should i eat more post its
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QT is C++, but you can write your code in C and just use the various classes

to get GUI widgets. I really don't see why someone that knows C would have a

problem with C++. I find some aspects of C++ irritating compared to Java,

C#, Python, etc.. But it's far from "unsuitable for use". I can write both

good and bad code in most any language. And there is nothing saying you have

to write your apps in C++. Whatever, it's your money and your time, do what

you want with it. I just find it an odd thing to be so irritated about.
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On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 12:39 AM, Carlo E. Prelz &lt;<a href="mailto:fluido@fluido.as">fluido@fluido.as</a>&gt; wrote:<br><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">

 The switch to QT<br>

*requires* the abandoning of C in favour of C++, a language that I<br>

personally find unsuitable for use.</blockquote></div><br><br>QT is C++, but you can write your code in C and just use the various classes to get GUI widgets. I really don&#39;t see why someone that knows C would have a problem with C++. I find some aspects of C++ irritating compared to Java, C#, Python, etc.. But it&#39;s far from &quot;unsuitable for use&quot;. I can write both good and bad code in most any language. And there is nothing saying you have to write your apps in C++. Whatever, it&#39;s your money and your time, do what you want with it. I just find it an odd thing to be so irritated about. <br>
------=_Part_2239_8058525.1211293266223--

Not to single out one or two posters because they might not be the ones 
Please change the subject line when you hijack a thread from

"impressions of a software release" to "programming language flame war".
Thank you.
Ian Darwin (OP of the "ASU Software impressions" thread)
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On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 4:21 PM, Travis Tabbal <travis@tabbal.net>

Really? Try writing good code in whitespace [1] or most of [2] :P
Anyway, regarding the app icons: perhaps it's possible to move those that

are used most often to the top automatically?
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitespace_%28programming_language%29

[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esoteric_programming_language#Esoteric_prog...

--

Vincent
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<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 4:21 PM, Travis Tabbal &lt;<a href="mailto:travis@tabbal.net">travis@tabbal.net</a>&gt; wrote:&lt;snip&gt;<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">

 I can write both good and bad code in most any language.&lt;snip&gt;<br>

<br></blockquote></div><br clear="all">Really? Try writing good code in whitespace [1] or most of [2] :P<br><br>Anyway, regarding the app icons: perhaps it&#39;s possible to move those that are used most often to the top automatically?<br>

<br>[1] <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitespace_%28programming_language%29">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitespace_%28programming_language%29</a><br>[2] <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esoteric_programming_language#Esoteric_programming_terms">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esoteric_programming_language#Esoteric_programming_terms</a><br>

-- <br>Vincent
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Subject: Re: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions

	Date: mar 20 mag 08 08:21:06 -0600
Funny way to define the concept. I must disagree: if you "use the various classes"
Subjectively (for me), it is unsuitable for use.
I write code as a job (have been doing that for longer than I wish to

remember). C and Ruby are my current tools. I know from multiple

personal attempts that C++ goes severely against my mental engrams. My

ability to pay my bills depends on how smoothly and effectively these

engrams operate. I cannot allow them to get disrupted.
My complaint is that it would be difficult for me to put my hands into

the default apps. They are C++, QT, and expectedly using enough of

those creepy C++-isms (possibly, even those yecchy templates or

whereabouts). I would be comfortable with tinkering with C&GTK main

apps. On the other hand, I would find C++&QT main apps closed boxes (I

perfectly know that I could very well write C/Ruby new code on the
I do not know how you received the idea that I was irritated. I am

only a bit disappointed (after waiting for this project to produce its

fruit for all these years), and I wanted to let Openmoko know that

they have lost at least one (early-adopting) client by operating the

switch to QT. 
Later, if I find that the original OM core code works to satisfaction,

I may decide to buy the phone just the same.
Carlo
--

  *         Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte,

* K * Carlo E. Prelz - fluido@fluido.as             che bisogno ci sarebbe

  *               di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu)
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written in C++ or Qt for the simple reason that you can't tinker with the

code. I am sure this is not the case. You use the applications written in

C++/Qt and play with those written in the languages you're comfortable with

or you write your own from scratch. Right now OM needs more new apps than it

needs shipped apps taken apart (which will probably be done by a number of

people anyway).
Refusing to get the phone because you dislike the languages the shipped apps

are written in, not because it prevents anyone from coding in the languages

they prefer or that any of the applications are proprietary is beyond

ridiculous. To each their own though. Good luck getting that perfect phone

that ships with C and GTK apps and also lets you code in any language you

want.
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<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 1:32 PM, Carlo E. Prelz &lt;<a href="mailto:fluido@fluido.as">fluido@fluido.as</a>&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">

 &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; <br>

My complaint is that it would be difficult for me to put my hands into<br>

the default apps. They are C++, QT, and expectedly using enough of<br>

those creepy C++-isms (possibly, even those yecchy templates or<br>

whereabouts). I would be comfortable with tinkering with C&amp;GTK main<br>

apps. On the other hand, I would find C++&amp;QT main apps closed boxes (I<br>

perfectly know that I could very well write C/Ruby new code on the<br>

OM).<br>

<br></blockquote></div>From this statement, one would think t...
[ message continues ]

In this case, openmoko is still being marketed to developers and is

still alpha software. As such, I have a reasonable expectation that I

will want to hack a fair number of the applications it ships with. So

that is a valid complaint. Of course, you could simply rewrite each

application in your preferred language, but that's a waste of effort.

Or you could not mess with the applications written in a language you

do not prefer. Or you could wait until there's a more severe need and

then learn the language in question and start working on the

application.
With desktop Linux, most things are sufficiently mature that I expect

not to have to hack them. So the language they are written in is far

less important.
Of course, one person's opinion doesn't matter much, as long as there

are plenty of people familiar with the languages that are commonly

used in openmoko. I think there are far more people who can

effectively write C collaboratively than who can effectively write C++

collaboratively.
The larger issue is extending a C++ codebase in another language.
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Subject: Re: Switch from GTK to QT (was: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions)

	Date: mer 21 mag 08 09:22:38 -0400
I do not use any Qt app (Qt not installed on any of my PC's). My XFCE

setup is satisfactory as it is. I do use C++-written apps (starting

with dear old Groff). No need to modify them, though. 
But you do not see the point. The cutting point of OM is that I can

(rather, could) finely adapt the core phone applications to my many

quirks. If I cannot do this, well, no reason to substitute my old

palm, which goes on giving me the phone/pim services I need
You appear to have a very low ridiculousness threshold.
Carlo
--

  *         Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte,

* K * Carlo E. Prelz - fluido@fluido.as             che bisogno ci sarebbe

  *               di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu)
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If it has a C interface it's likely classes don't strictly mean c++

classes.
My 2c on c++..  
It is an extra magnitude of difficulty to get anything more then a few

developers to code in a consistent style when working with C++.

Requires strict discipline and coding standards.  Without such things,

it all de-generates at a rate proportianal to the number of developers

and amount of code being writen. 
-----Original Message-----

From: community-bounces@lists.openmoko.org

[mailto:community-bounces@lists.openmoko.org] On Behalf Of Carlo E.

Prelz

Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 1:32 PM

To: List for Openmoko community discussion

Subject: Re: Switch from GTK to QT (was: ASU software -

pre-pre-releaseimpressions)
	Subject: Re: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions

	Date: mar 20 mag 08 08:21:06 -0600
Funny way to define the concept. I must disagree: if you "use the

various classes"
Subjectively (for me), it is unsuitable for use.
I write code as a job (have been doing that for longer than I wish to

remember). C and Ruby are my current tools. I know from multiple

personal attempts that C++ goes severely against my mental engrams. My

ability to pay my bills depends on how smoothly and effectively these

engrams operate. I cannot allow them to get disrupted.
My complaint is that it would be difficult for me to put my hands into

the default apps. They are C++, QT, and expectedly using enough of

those creepy C++-isms (possibly, even those yecchy templates or

whereabouts). I would be comfortable with tinkering with C&GTK main

apps. On the other hand, I would find C++&QT main apps closed boxes (I

perfectly know that I could very well write C/Ruby new code on the
I do not know how you received the idea that I was irritated. I am

only a bit disappointed (after waiting for this project to produce its

fruit for all these years), and I wanted to let Openmoko know that

they have lost at least one (early-adopting) client by operating the

switch to QT. 
Later, if I ...
[ message continues ]

Yeah.. just like when working with C, Java, Python etc etc etc
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Tuesday 20 May 2008 skrev Carlo E. Prelz:
  Well... Why not use the Qt bindings for Ruby, then?

http://rubyforge.org/projects/korundum/
  (also, i might make the note, that while C++ itself might give you a

headache, using Qt is really rather different from using pure C++, but as

you're so very experienced, i suspect you already know this :) )
--

..Dan // Leinir..

http://www.leinir.dk/
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                            existence

                          or no

                            existence
                          - Piet Hein
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------=_Part_3419_13370395.1211307328978

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On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 1:45 PM, Dan Leinir Turthra Jensen <admin@leinir.dk>
Very cool. I've been thinking I might need a Ruby project for a while now. I

might have to give that library a try when I get some time to set up an OM

dev environment. C++ is far from my favorite language as well. :)
Personally, I'd like to see work continue on the old GTK apps, I like the

look of them better than the QTopia apps from the screenshots I've seen so

far. Not that either one is bad really, just preference. I'm sure there are

plenty of people that like the new apps better as well. The joy of

community. :)
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On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 1:45 PM, Dan Leinir Turthra Jensen &lt;<a href="mailto:admin@leinir.dk">admin@leinir.dk</a>&gt; wrote:<br><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">

<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>

</div> &nbsp;Well... Why not use the Qt bindings for Ruby, then?<br>

<a href="http://rubyforge.org/projects/korundum/" target="_blank">http://rubyforge.org/projects/korundum/</a><br></blockquote><div><br><br>Very cool. I&#39;ve been thinking I might need a Ruby project for a while now. I might have to give that library a try when I get some time to set up an OM dev environment. C++ is far from my favorite language as well. :) <br>

<br>Personally, I&#39;d like to see work continue on the old GTK apps, I like the look of them better than the QTopia apps from the screenshots I&#39;ve seen so far. Not that either one is bad really, just preference. I&#39;m sure the...
[ message continues ]

Fair enough. I have seen plenty of C code using C++ objects that I

didn't think of as real C++ code. It felt more like Obj-C to me, but
Fair enough. We all think in different ways so I can see what you're

getting at. I personally don't find C++ all that bad to grok once I

get into it a little, but if we were all like me the world would be a
Emotion + Email = Misinterpretation
My apologies if I misunderstood what you were getting at. Best wishes

whatever your decision on the phone, I certainly don't make any money

if you buy one. :) Just curious what you found so wrong about the

change, and you kindly explained it to me. Thanks. :)
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C++ is difficult to link against, so that limits the languages that you

can use for development.  For instance, D has a hard time with linking

to C++ (or did last I checked).  C, on the other hand is far simpler to

link to.  That's why many standard APIs use C interfaces - OpenGL for

instance. 
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Recent versions of dmd can link against C++ code compiled with dmc,

but it's a bit unreliable, from what I've heard. And D has *extremely

good* support for linking with C++, compared with other languages.
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