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I am pleased to announce the release of ComixWall 4.6. This is the 7th public release of ComixWall ISG. Please go to http://comixwall.org to download the installation CD image, via bittorrent. ComixWall is still the only fully FOSS and freely available UTM firewall running on OpenBSD. You can use the web administration interface to configure and monitor your system and the network. Supported architectures are amd64 and i386 (ComixWall is one of the few UTM firewalls with 64-bit support). There are major changes in this version. Updated web user interface is the result of a 4+ months of intense refactoring and development effort. There are changes to other parts of the system too. The changes are too numerous to list here. The following are a few of the web user interface features: - Most system and service configuration can be achieved on the web interface, including pf rules. - System, network, and internal clients can be monitored via graphs. - Logs can be viewed and downloaded on the web interface. Compressed log files are supported. - Statistics collected over logs are displayed in bar charts and top lists. Statistics over compressed log files are supported. - Web interface provides many help boxes and windows, which can be disabled. - Man pages of OpenBSD and installed software can be accessed and searched on the web interface. - There are two users who can log in to the web interface. Unprivileged user does not have access rights to configuration pages, thus cannot interfere with system settings, and cannot even change user password (i.e. you can safely give the unprivileged user's password to your boss). - Web interface supports languages other than English: Turkish, Chinese, Dutch, Russian, French, Spanish. - Web interface configuration pages are designed so that changes you may have made to the configuration files on the command line (such as comments you might have added) remain intact after you configure a module using the web interface. ComixWall 4.6 ...
Due to unexpected reaction from the leader of the OpenBSD project (please read below), I am terminating the ComixWall project. I will keep the project server running until the end of this month. I might resurrect the project in the future with another host OS perhaps. I am going to unsubscribe from this list after posting this last message. He apparently prefers reading messages from 'pricks' (to use his terms) rather than release announcements from people trying to help. Good luck, and goodbye...
I'm not taking sides, but how exactly are you "trying to help"? The few times I've seen you post to misc@ have been to promote your own fork of OpenBSD, or to ask for help in getting your own stuff running. How exactly does this help the _OpenBSD_project_? -- Jason Dixon DixonGroup Consulting http://www.dixongroup.net/
COMIXWALL isn't a fork, its just a preinstalled configuration panel
for OpenBSD and a collection of nice utilities.
And considering (and no offence here) the COMIXWALL developers are
enthusiasts not paid professional developers.
So where's the harm asking some advice?
After all lets face is some of the brightest minds in computer
security lurk on this list and code for OpenBSD/OpenSSL.
--
"Opportunity is most often missed by people because it is dressed in
overalls and looks like work."
Thomas Alva Edison
Inventor of 1093 patents, including:
The light bulb, phonogram and motion pictures.
So it belongs as a a port then. Not as a "distibution" - and not sending release announcements to OpenBSD lists. Do we see release announcements here for other new ports? Do we see release announcements on our lists for Firefox? The point is not whether comixwall is a good thing. While I'll debate the wisdom of advertising yourself as a seperate distribtion when really you are a set of configuration tools, the point is simple: * Release Announcements For things that are not OpenBSD do not belong on OpenBSD lists * - We don't tell people who have other ported applications that run on openbsd to spew every release announcement over our lists - why should ComixWall be any different? This should not be difficult to understand.
In both quoted responses Theo specifically mentioned the lists and for the OP to quit posting ads. I thought the message was quite clear. I'm not sure how the OP missed that.
On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 10:37:01 -0700
I'm quite new to OpenBSD, but I already read a few "NEW:"
and "UPDATED:" announcements on the -ports mailing list.
Anyway, comixwall is not a part of the "official" ports
tree. So the release announcements of comixwall should not
go into the ports list either.
I had a second look at the descriptions of the mailing
lists:
misc
User questions and answers, general questions. This is the
most active list. Please, read the FAQ and the installation
documents, and see How to report a Problem before posting.
advocacy
Promoting the use of OpenBSD. Non-technical discussions in
misc often get shunted here.
So as I read this announcements of projects trying to
promote OpenBSD can (and should) go into the advocacy list.
misc is only for user questions, general questions. Asking
for translators might fit in here. Still as comixwall is
trying to promote OpenBSD the request may fit better into
the advocacy list.
The only problem is the advocacy list is quite dead. So the
decision to post the announcement of ComixWall to the misc
comixwall is developed to make using OpenBSD easier. It's
only project goal is to prove "that it is possible to create
high quality, free and open source ISG based on OpenBSD"
(cited from the comixwall homepage).
So I would say its relevance for OpenBSD users (the audience
According to the archives at MARC there were exactly two
release announcements of comixwall on this list. One in 2008
and one in 2009. This is not exactly the amount it takes to
pollute a mailing list.
This stupid thread did already produce enough noise to make
up for 7 years of comixwall release announcements.
I know I just added some additional noise, still I would be
glad to see this issue settled in a non-destructive way.
OpenBSD is a great OS and ComixWall enables many people to
use it. I don't see any reason why the two projects should
not be able to cooperate.
Christopher ...How does the announcement of new releases for ComixWall help OpenBSD? How does abstraction of arguably the cleanest, easiest to learn UNIX, Because they are not "cooperative" projects. OpenBSD doesn't need ComixWall. OpenBSD is Free, Functional and Secure(*). (*) And easy. -- Jason Dixon DixonGroup Consulting http://www.dixongroup.net/
On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 13:38:56 -0500 It helps in promoting OpenBSD. And this is the official purpose of the advocasy mailing list. So I think that announcements of ComixWall releases could go into the advocasy list. Is this a false conclusion? If not Soner Tari could go on with his project and post his announcements to the advocacy list. Anyway, since the advocascy list is dead, the two announcements to misc should not be censured in such a harsh It helps in promoting OpenBSD. Promoting OpenBSD will make OpenBSD more widely known. This will attract more possible developers. They will write code for OpenBSD. This will help If this is true, it's a pity. Then comixwall just died. I still hope this issue can be settled in a NON-DESTRUCTIVE way. And yes. I AM WHINING. It bothers me when people destroy such a huge amount of good work just because of a stupid Right. And the devil may care. Not helping comixwall by bearing one release announcement per year is not lazy, not even selfish, its just PLAIN FUCKING STUPID!
And I have to agree with that one too ... Best Regards Gonzalo Nemmi
No. It helps promoting ComixWall and it will attract people to ComixWall and those people will contribute to ComixWall. Telling us that ComixWall makes it possible to use OpenBSD is stupid. Now quit wasting your time and download a <insert major linux distro that comes with a shitload of 'user friendly' wizards> iso. -- Michiel van Baak michiel@vanbaak.eu http://michiel.vanbaak.eu GnuPG key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x71C946BD "Why is it drug addicts and computer aficionados are both called users?"
See there Michiel .. beauty lies in the eye of the beholder .. that's you opinion ... and by no means it's authoritative .. nor anything close to it. Whether it helps promoting ComixWall or not is debatable .. but that OpenBSD is the underlying OS said software is a fact. Now, regardless of the ComixWall promoting benefits of a couple of mails sent the (maybe, maybe not) the wrong list, the fact is that ComixWall users .. are actually OpenBSD users .. just as much as FreeNAS or PC-BSD users, are actually FreeBSD users ... So .. in the end, the fact that ComixWall uses OpenBSD as it's fundation, _does_ help promote OpenBSD use and expand it's user base ... just as BSDAnywhere _does_ help promote OpenBSD use and expand it's user base ... just as liveusb-openbsd _does_ help promote OpenBSD Well then .. read the paragraph I just wrote for you .. it says OpenBSD Uhm .. nobody ever said that .. you must have read it wrong ... or you Why would anybody want to do that? Aren't we all UNIX users? There's PC-BSD for that matter .. or FreeBSD if you feel so inclined .. no need to resort to Linux .. which is a whole different thing Michiel ... that was quite a lousy shot there .. Best Regards Gonzalo Nemmi
On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 2:01 PM, Christopher Zimmermann If OpenBSD is hard to use, people should work to make it easier to use. That way everybody benefits, not just the lucky few who get to use the easy distro. Imagine if instead of people contributing device drivers to OpenBSD, they made a unique distro that was OpenBSD + a driver.
On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 1:01 PM, Christopher Zimmermann were just joking, I'm going to terminate the Comixwall project". It was Soner's choice. He threw his ass like a 5 year old. Comixwall just died because Soner couldn't take being told to do things differently, not because of the attitude of Theo and the OpenBSD devs. If you're looking for something to point at and call stupid, I'd say Soner's decision is a good starting place.
I seriously doubt that Theo sells any cd more because of ComixWall. And sale of cds is what ultimately counts as "promoting OpenBSD". I can't find Tari's name on http://www.openbsd.org/donations.html, nor can I find a link to there from http://comixwall.org While I applaud him for his effort and think this is a great thing, he Indeed. I applaud Theo for implementing a zero-tolerance-for-spam Best Martin
On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 20:43:59 +0100 He links several times to openbsd. Try clicking on the OpenBSD 4.6 cover displayed on the main page. Since Soner Tari does not sell his project he could Now that would be great of course. Do you think it would be possible to distribute comixwall as several ports in the ports tree? Only installation would become a bit more difficult. But this should not be a big deal. It's just a pity that the constructive proposals come only after people already gave up....
The premise that this is advocacy may be entirely mistaken, as it does not strike me as a strong argument in favour of OpenBSD to say that it needs to be redistributed with an alternate installer, a web GUI, and some additional software builds to be *really* useful than as released by the core development community. Might it not be the case that the existing packages and ports system already makes OpenBSD a "fully FOSS and freely available UTM firewall" or that improving support for what's bundled with ComixWall to make more components available as packages and/or ports would be offer greater flexibility in how people decide to acquire and deploy the product, more effectively supporting and growing the community? This creates a problem of due recognition and attribution, which is what's feeding all the moments of dispute These conclusions are tenuous leaps, amounting to a secret sauce argument: OpenBSD tastes good, but with the secret sauce it would be able attract all kinds of smart people it somehow can't attract with its current recipe. This logic of supplementarity rather makes the supplement the essential thing rather than the essential thing that it's supposed to promote, and that seems to sell what OpenBSD already is and its ability to continue to evolve as a technology, a development process, and a series of communities short. Not even prospectively can the proposition that there is no ComixWall without OpenBSD be not made reversible in the way you seem to suggest, any more than supporting a redistribution on premises overstated with respect to the OpenBSD core will amount to support in various forms Sorry if I'm repeating myself for a moment here, but isn't imagining ComixWall as a (or the) vital supplement to OpenBSD in the way you're suggesting selling a huge amount of very far good work short? I find myself able to reach that conclusion without being seized by a fit of pique, but I can imagine having good ...
On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 1:26 PM, Christopher Zimmermann This is the misc list, not the ports list. They are different. And if you looked at those mails, you would see that they had ports If you make a port of something new, you mail it to ports with a subject of NEW. If you update a port, you use a subject of UPDATED. In either case, a port or diff should be attached. If it's not a port and there's no attachment, then you are correct, it doesn't belong on ports either.
This is a VERY sad day :(
Personally I managed to convert quite a few people to using OpenBSD by
coaxing an interest via COMIXWALL.
A grand pity and unfortunately if I were you I'd probably have done
the same :( OpenBSD is possibly the cleanest most delightful OS to
work on and most definitely the most secure I have worked on but the
attitudes of /some/ the core developers leave much to be desired.
That said, will I stop using OpenBSD on my edge devices... HELL NO!
There just isn't an alternative :(
--
"Opportunity is most often missed by people because it is dressed in
overalls and looks like work."
Thomas Alva Edison
Inventor of 1093 patents, including:
The light bulb, phonogram and motion pictures.
This is just silly. If you make a firewall distribution to "promote OpenBSD" instead of making a firewall distribution, your source of motivation is wrong. OpenBSD is free software. You are completely free to use it as a basis for your firewall distribution. The project, on the other hand, does not have to distribute your advertisements. Especially not for every release. You can start your own mailing list and post them there. A single post to misc@ might have been OK to inform potentially interested people. If your choice of OS is based on whether you can advertize on their list, the loss is yours. If I were making a firewall distribution I'd certainly choose the OS that suits the project techincally. In any case OpenBSD does not owe anything to you. Had they asked you to "promote OpenBSD" this way it would be different.
The point of extortion is to hurt someone else. Suicide bombing doesn't work when you do it in the middle of a desert. //art
So what...someone was wrong, someone's train of thought was wrong...so what? Someone posts something and it's the wrong place...ok, say this isn't the place and move on. If this person though they where helping and people think they are not...well they have a different opinion but really they haven't actually don't anything wrong. The way Theo spoke to them in the e-mail was quite rude and you could say "oh well it's only words" but then you can say "oh well it's only an announcement". Ridiculing someone and telling them to get off the list is rude and unnecessary for someone who was only trying to help, whether they actually where or not, and whether they where right or wrong, in reality they didn't do any harm. We can all hold our hands up for being wrong, having a different opinion, sometimes doing things that are not helpful but you genuinely thought they where. This person, I don't think, had any intent to do anything but help. The harsh words from some people pushing them away is not needed, then ridiculing them when they want to terminate because of the way they have been spoken to is a sad loss. Some people are sensitive to the way people have spoken to them. Mocking them by coming out with gems like "Do you cut yourself when somebody yells at you just to show them?" is quite unnecessary.
what was wrong here was Soner Tari posting private emails to a public mailing lists. -- jakemsr@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org
There are a lot more abuse of the misc list than Soner posting about his OpenBSD project. Maybe Theo should install a decent spam filter for the lists ? Just a few of the recent ones: From: Commonwealth Bank<memberservice@commonwealth.com.au> To: misc@openbsd.org Subject: Commonwealth Bank of Australia Security Department Team. Date: 10 Dec 2009 15:47:59 -0800 From: "Systat Software, Inc"<newversions@systat.us> To: "misc@openbsd.org"<misc@openbsd.org> Subject: SigmaPlot11.2 - NoCost Update Available Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 14:25:49 -0800 From: "Akis Angelakis"<info@image-a.gr> To:<misc@openbsd.org> Subject: LIFE GOOD NEWSLETTER no 57 Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 13:28:46 +0200 From: "ma-boutique-deco.com"<maboutique-deco@my-deco-shop.com> To: ""<misc@openbsd.org> Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[BLOG_DECO_et_DESIGN]_nouveaut=C3=A9s_my-deco-shop_-_misc@openbsd.org?= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 11:30:07 +0100 What's wrong with posting OpenBSD-related 'adverts', and in this special case with ComixWall which is totally free ? I agree with a lot of the other posts that ComixWall doesn't really promote OpenBSD in any way, but for those who are looking for a solution like the one that it provides, this "distribution" will save some hours of installation and compilation time. ...my 217 kronor of time... /PeO
those aren't telling OpenBSD users which, except for the trolls, is probably the majority of readers of misc@, to use !OpenBSD, or to be more liberal, to use -stable (which arguably detracts from development on it's own) + some other bullshit that isn't supported by OpenBSD in any way. why is that so hard to understand? -- jakemsr@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org
Its so sad... Because of a lack of respect and a little humility all this shit is taking place. To make a mistake is human, to forgive is divine. Respect and honor for who deserve it. My best regards Fabio Almeida
It is simple. ComixWall was a *Distribution*. It directly competes with OpenBSD. People could obtain ComixWall directly from his web site. This means *less* CD sales. CD sales are the main source of income for OpenBSD. Therefore ComixWall *hurts* OpenBSD. Theo's hostility is completely understandable. What do you people not get? If he wanted to create a GUI frontend for OpenBSD and then submit it as a port he would have been more than welcome, but instead he created a way of obtaining OpenBSD that completely circumvents the official site. This does *not* help OpenBSD in *any* way. Again, what do you people not get??
I think the follow about this: The OpenBSD project must and need to keep simple . The more important is not lost the focus of the security And OpenBSD by yourself already make this. Comixwall is only one frontend wrote in php to control some services such as Dansguardian . But no lost the focus of the security To me , it's all a big BULLSHIT Comixwall don't compete with OpenBSD because it is the OpenBSD
OK, I give up. You obviously have serious reading comprehension problems. On Fri, 11 Dec 2009 22:57 -0200, "dark knight neo"
I've been following this thread with great interest, both sides had a point, but language was ugly. This makes it all very clear. I thought Theo was right, but this puts the problem right and clear. I agree 100% with this. Chris Bennett -- A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. -- Robert Heinlein
mentioned (create a port and submit it so everyone can benefit). The second approach would be to sell ComixWall CD's and donate at least the cost of the OpenBSD CD's to the OpenBSD project. Sure, that means ComixWall will cost $55+, but that way the OpenBSD team doesn't lose CD sales and ComixWall makes a little profit for writing the frontend.
This isn't about money, is about spam. Please, finish the spam. DISCLAIMER: http://goldmark.org/jeff/stupid-disclaimers/ This message will self-destruct in 3 seconds.
1) spam. Theo and the OpenBSD team own this list. Just because OpenBSD is "free to use as you see fit" doesn't mean the mailing lists are too. Theo said stop it, and the OP challenged Theo's decision. Theo had every right to be pissed. I'm not disagreeing there. 2) money. I was responding to a post about the OpenBSD team losing CD sales due to ComixWall. I fail to see how that doesn't concern money.
Since when announcing is spam ? Being that the Comixwall is OpenBSD Why Theo don't announcing or put a link in the OpenBSD website to Comixwall website ? Why no think in the collective one ?
Regardless of the words exchanged between both parties, you are thick and need some reading skills. Steph
Yes .. You have all the reason . I ask . THEO, Which the reason for not announce the Comixwall in the OpenBSD misc list ? I would like to understand. My best regards
Seriously, STFU. Take it offlist with individuals if you still have questions. -- Jason Dixon DixonGroup Consulting http://www.dixongroup.net/
Because it doesn't fucking belong there. How hard is that to get through your skull? Now go back to Norway.
Yes, I think that's the point. It's just so sad that ComixWall will be terminated, in fact I doesn't use it, but it's a very nice thing what Soner Tari have achieved. It really could be an excellent port to the system, and being a port certainly would be more useful to OpenBSD as well. I agree with you. Fabio Almeida ----- Mensagem Original----- De: Eric Furman <ericfurman@fastmail.net> Para: Mentesan <mentesan@gmail.com>, OpenBSD Misc <misc@openbsd.org> Assunto: Re: ComixWall terminated Data: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 19:37:33 -0500 It is simple. ComixWall was a *Distribution*. It directly competes with OpenBSD. People could obtain ComixWall directly from his web site. This means *less* CD sales. CD sales are the main source of income for OpenBSD. Therefore ComixWall *hurts* OpenBSD. Theo's hostility is completely understandable. What do you people not get? If he wanted to create a GUI frontend for OpenBSD and then submit it as a port he would have been more than welcome, but instead he created a way of obtaining OpenBSD that completely circumvents the official site. This does *not* help OpenBSD in *any* way. Again, what do you people not get??
This is levelling down a distinction: there's spam that's definitely spam and can be filtered reasonably easily before or after being sent to the list. Sending something to the list that's not readily distinguishable from other content is no longer a problem for a spam filter, wherever it may sit. The fact that the list doesn't filter spam for you mechanically doesn't mean members shouldn't intervene Well, if the principle is that this list is to build and support community around OpenBSD, it's a question about what's considered acceptable conduct within the community. Clearly there are strong feelings on either side, but I gotta ask whether advertising a redistribution, where there's not a lot of evidence of other involvement in the community, doesn't at least come across as, at minimum, genuinely subject to question. We can disagree as to what the answer is, but the exceptional characteristics that make this a question don't just answer themselves by the kinds of characteristics Sure, but how about substantial questions like code audits for the PHP code and determining processes and mechanisms for patching? Binary distribution may not be a sin in itself (I've come around to the opinion that it's largely oversold as to its benefits), but, particularly if it's claiming to carry the flag of simplification, one may nevertheless be circumspect about the approach and implementation, by people who've not otherwise established standing in the community and demonstrated the viability of their work in that context. I understand why people who've made sustained contributions to OpenBSD would not be happy with advertising a redistribution vexed by these kinds of questions. I've had enough experience with Unix engineering to have both sympathy for someone who does this kind of work independently of established community organs and a strong scepticism as to whether the product will be nearly as robust as advertised or imagined ...
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 This is levelling down a distinction: there's spam that's definitely spam and can be filtered reasonably easily before or after being sent to the list. Sending something to the list that's not readily distinguishable from other content is no longer a problem for a spam Well, if the principle is that this list is to build and support community around OpenBSD, it's a question about what's considered appropriate conduct within the community. Clearly there are strong feelings on either side, but I gotta ask whether advertising a redistribution, where there's not a lot of evidence of other involvement in the community, doesn't at least come across as, at minimum, genuinely subject to question. You can disagree as to what the answer is, but the exceptional characteristics that make this a question don't just answer themselves by the kinds of characteristics Sure, but how about substantial questions like code audits for the PHP code and determining processes and mechanisms for patching? Binary distribution may not be a sin in itself (I've come around to the opinion that it's largely oversold as to its benefits), but, particularly if it's claiming to carry the flag of simplification, one may nevertheless be circumspect about the approach and implementation, by people who've not otherwise established standing in the community. I've had enough experience with Unix engineering to have both sympathy for someone who does this kind of work independently of established community organs and a strong scepticism as to whether the product will be nearly as robust as advertised or imagined for lack of strong challenges and correctives from peers and existing centres of expertise. I certainly can't think it reasonable to be so taken away with the sympathetic element of response as to overlook or underweight the strong prospect of flaws resulting from the approach taken. Conversely, with time ...
Seriously, theo wtf ? Here is a packaged version of openbsd which doesn't ask for donations providing something which users clearly want. if you can't see that users come in many shapes and forms you are seriously *wrong*. I for one would suggest that comixwall moves to freebsd, due to hypocrisy and selfishness of openbsd as shown on this list. Openbsd slow "masterbating monkies", Always late to the security party (how many years late for PIE ? etc.)
On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 10:19 AM, spamtester spamtester --- I think the point is that while users are very different, we should learn how things happen here and respect that by adjusting our behavior to better fit in. When privately asked not to do something, just be polite and honor the request. That's it. Brad
