http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/706950
Again a mis representation in pulic?
--Siju

if ppl stop giving "special" consideration to security, the quality of

security enforcement could come down. Ideally we like to "clean" all

bugs. But as is pointed out, bugs are many. Prioritizing bugs and

"dealing with a strong deadline" is vitally important. classification

of bugs into domain is the most effective way to deal with them. Not

only does it help people concerened in the area to be aware..fast. but

also it helps in "discussiong" it with like-minded people. Posting a

security bug in a general list will prove a little hard, as the people

may not know what meat-in-the middle, priviledge escalation..etc mean.

Its just bare stupidity to "clout" the bug space by generalizing it.

One more point, The security bugs are important because the harm done

is usually "crafted", with "bad intentions" and "on purpose". It also

leads to financial "theft" an d"crimes" than just the normal loss of

data or worktime(as in normal bug). You could get pennnalized as

abeiting the crime. But a gui crash is always less severe. People can

quickly loose trust in the software and the services that depend on

them can be irrecoverabliy damaged. Think about it.... there are more

people engaged in penetrating, propagating security holes than filing

common bug reports.... it definitely isnt a time-waster for them.
Hats of to open bsd people... its my second best distro for my

boundary router/firewall(if i dont use cisco that is.). My first

choice will be a kernel i "audited" myself... since i cant invest in

it... openbsd does a good job too... ;)
--

As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an

evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil

that they set out to destroy.

 - Christopher Dawson, The Judgment of Nations

"OpenBSD - proudly powered by primates' privates"
 --

Fergus Wilde

Chetham's Library

Long Millgate

Manchester

M3 1SB
Tel: 0161 834 7961

Fax: 0161 839 5797
http://www.chethams.org.uk

I like to think OpenBSD attracts the kind of people that come up with

their own opinions from their own experiences and don't invest too

heavily in others' before attempting to formulate their own.

In other words, who cares what Linus thinks of security or OpenBSD?

Just because he's the figure head of a very widely known open source

project doesn't mean his opinions should be glorified or are more

important.

And this is exactly why I never try to intice new users over to OpenBSD.

If they're knowledgeable and appreciate correct/secure/elegant code,

they'll find their way in time.
We like people who think for themselves and recognize what OpenBSD is

really all about.  We don't want sheep.
--

Jason Dixon

DixonGroup Consulting

http://www.dixongroup.net/

"To me, security is important.  But it's no less important than

everything *else* that is also important!"  I.e. there are no shades

of gray in import hence importance is black-and-while.  Hmmmm...
--

Monty Brandenberg

IMO, this isn't the worst sentence on linus' interview.  He has

the right to think anything about everything. He has even the

right to be plain wrong. But he should _not_ say this about

anyone:
"I think the OpenBSD crowd is a bunch of masturbating monkeys (...)"
What's the point here? If he places security in second place, that's fine.

But don't say people who _do_ think like that is a bunch of

bastards.

*yawn* linus' opinion is as interesting as his relevance.

haha, poor linus cries like a baby coz not everyone is gonna kiss his

ass these days.
of course security is not that important! there is no doubt, we've

seen numerous examples by linux indeed.
well, guess what is worse: a db server crashed and rebooted, or a db

server rooted and all valuable information sucked out of it. jeez, i

always thought that linux "wants" to get into serious game of big

servers etc., but with the leader like that?.. gimme a break.
he made my day with that comment! sorry guys for contributing to this,

just couldn't resist :-)
p.s. i guess dr. freud would find some serious troubles deep in the guy ;-)

I took the care of reading all the thread. The guy is just asking linus

why the policy about security bugs isn't being followed. Linus replies

him telling that he do not want script kiddies to exploit the bugs. He

even says that security bugs are "normal" bugs. I think that linus

doesn't even know what full disclosure is. It's a shame for me, a linux

and openbsd user, to see the linux kernel main developer, saying things

like that. I think i might migrate my desktop machine to openbsd now.
My 2 cents,
--

Giancarlo Razzolini

http://lock.razzolini.adm.br

Linux User 172199

Red Hat Certified Engineer no:804006389722501

Verify:https://www.redhat.com/certification/rhce/current/

Moleque Sem Conteudo Numero #002

OpenBSD Stable

Ubuntu 8.04 Hardy Herom

4386 2A6F FFD4 4D5F 5842  6EA0 7ABE BBAB 9C0E 6B85

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 03:45:23PM -0300, Giancarlo Razzolini wrote:

| I took the care of reading all the thread. The guy is just asking linus

| why the policy about security bugs isn't being followed. Linus replies

| him telling that he do not want script kiddies to exploit the bugs. He

| even says that security bugs are "normal" bugs. I think that linus

| doesn't even know what full disclosure is. It's a shame for me, a linux

| and openbsd user, to see the linux kernel main developer, saying things

| like that. I think i might migrate my desktop machine to openbsd now.
I'd suggest you rethink your reasons for changing OS. If you want to

switch from Linux to OpenBSD (or vice versa, for all I care), please

make sure there's sound technical reasons for it. "The main guy said

something stupid" does not a bad product make.
Cheers,
Paul 'WEiRD' de Weerd
+++++++++++>-]<.>++[<------------>-]<+.--------------.[-]

                 http://www.weirdnet.nl/

I'm still using linux and openbsd. There are technical reasons for me to

do that. The problem here isn't the main guy said something stupid. The

problem here, and this is what is making me more annoyed, is that i used

to have a point of view, and thinking of Linus as a great guy, who made

something important. He actually did, but now he is making it just plain

wrong. You know, security bugs are security bugs. The other ones are the

others. Simple like that. Linus is not just putting all of them in the

same sack, but he is also offending who does not, like the openbsd dev

team. This is an unacceptable attitude from someone  who is in the front

line of an entire operational system, and, who wanting it or not, has a

big influence, at least in linux world. So, i will not change my OS

because of what Linus said or not. I will change it because i think

openbsd is better. Plain simple like that. If i do not change, there

will be technical reasons for that, like my sound card not working on

openbsd, or something like that (mention to note, it does not work

properly on linux).
My regards,
--

Giancarlo Razzolini

http://lock.razzolini.adm.br

Linux User 172199

Red Hat Certified Engineer no:804006389722501

Verify:https://www.redhat.com/certification/rhce/current/

Moleque Sem Conteudo Numero #002

OpenBSD Stable

Ubuntu 8.04 Hardy Heron

4386 2A6F FFD4 4D5F 5842  6EA0 7ABE BBAB 9C0E 6B85

Oh he now develops code?  I thought that ended somewhere in in '95.

He is very good at taking someone's else code and putting that into the

linux kernel, i can assure that. My mind changed a lot since i started

using OpenBSD. I know see that the development model of the linux kernel

is flawed. I know, every model has it's issues. But *the* issue in linux

model is linus itself. It's a shame.
My 2 cents,
--

Giancarlo Razzolini

http://lock.razzolini.adm.br

Linux User 172199

Red Hat Certified Engineer no:804006389722501

Verify:https://www.redhat.com/certification/rhce/current/

Moleque Sem Conteudo Numero #002

OpenBSD Stable

Ubuntu 8.04 Hardy Herom

4386 2A6F FFD4 4D5F 5842  6EA0 7ABE BBAB 9C0E 6B85

maybe it is noteworthy here that Sigmund Freud received his Dr. med degree

with a work on the spinal cord of lower fish species.

Well, shit, he's got ME nailed...
--

Systems Programmer, Principal

Electrical & Computer Engineering

The University of Arizona

marti@arizona.edu

Let me be the first to say--
   Who cares?
I may completely disagree with him, but I'm not going to invest in a

flame fest over his comments.
To each their own.
--STeve Andre'

<snip>
Being here when Stallman started the last flame "nuclear holocaust" war,

I feel a weird sense of deja-vu right now.

Eheh he's right :-) If you guys get your heads out of your asses and

actually read his words with the use of some common sense you might

get what he means. It's a balanced opinion.
From what i've seen so far in this list, the BSD-crowd *is* "a bunch

of masturbating monkeys" anyway, i get much more decent reasonable

answers to my problems in any Debian list, along with constructive

criticism. Here it's rtfm and chest-thumping.
Flame away boys, so i can gingerly ignore you :)
--

Nuno MagalhC#es

It's a totally misinformed opinion.
which is exactly what people in the OpenBSD project do, all the time (fix

normal bugs). That's the proactive approach to security: don't wait until

you have an exploit, just fix the darn bug.
So, when he tries to say that the OpenBSD crowd has a different attitude,

I don't know who he's referring to, but certainly not me.
I don't think you have any idea how hard we're laughing right now.

It's just so out of touch with how we see things, it's beyond pathetic.
As you can see, my fellow developpers took it about the same way, but

with even more sarcasm...
we don't give a fuck about security for security's sake:
free, FUNCTIONAL, secure. choose all three. Says so on the T-shirt.

That's the funniest part about this. If the attitude we have about the

issue in that disucssion makes us a bunch of wanking monkeys, I'll

lend him my baboon porn. He was saying the same things we say. Hell,

reading him in that discussion without the From: lines could make me

think I'm reading someone @openbsd.org
//art

looks like the theme for the 4.4 release is sorted then.

_________________________________________________________________

Invite your Facebook friends to chat on Messenger

http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/101719649/direct/01/

Can we get a sticker, too?

agreed. I barely can wait to see Ty Semaka artwork for 4.4. Definitively

it should include monkeys.  And amoebas too.
My regards,
--

Giancarlo Razzolini

http://lock.razzolini.adm.br

Linux User 172199

Red Hat Certified Engineer no:804006389722501

Verify:https://www.redhat.com/certification/rhce/current/

Moleque Sem Conteudo Numero #002

OpenBSD Stable

Ubuntu 8.04 Hardy Heron

4386 2A6F FFD4 4D5F 5842  6EA0 7ABE BBAB 9C0E 6B85

I agree, monkeys should definitely be somehow incorporated into the

artwork for the next release.

ty draws openbsd developers as fish.  and I think that we, the openbsd

developers, did enough to warrant a nice topic for the next release.

no need to resort to that strange monkey business.
or do you want to honour a stupid remark made by l. by making him

the main theme of our next release?  I don't think so.  we have

more substantial work that goes into our next release than the

stupid remark of a wanking fat penguin that all to obviously does

not understand what we do.

On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 21:37:27 +0200
Wanking Sea Monkeys, then: the oceanic analogue of fleas,

at least in the area of genital proportion ;-)
Dhu

Sea Monkeys?
I feed my fishes with sea monkeys!
guido

On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 7:42 PM, Duncan Patton a Campbell <
lol. Looks like someone is selling new stuffs over the net:
http://www.cafepress.com/spankymm
-zamri-

I guess Linus lost his ability to masturbate for a long time huh?
--

This e-mail may be confidential. You may not copy, forward,

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parts of this. Treat it with the same level of care as any other

pretending-to-be-law-speaking-but-not-really texts attached to e-mail

messages you normally find on any other e-mails. For more information

about disclaimers, please see:

http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/stupid-disclaimers/

I concede your point.  My agreement wasn't meant to dishonor the dev

team.  I just agree with a previous statement that owning something

that was intended as an insult can diffuse the intended malice while

at the same time providing a bit of mirth for the person at whom the

insult was directed.

Personally, I think It'd be a nice continuation from the theme of the 4.3

release.

_________________________________________________________________

Invite your Facebook friends to chat on Messenger

http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/101719649/direct/01/

I agree entirely! The OpenBSD developers should surely be raised upon

shoulders for all of there work... However a mocking sticker would be

rather awesome!
-Jim

I ask into myself what appen if the anyone of the FSF or GPLled people

send at least one cent to developers, to say thanks to OpenSSH or

OpenBSD for their FREE (as beer) good software.

I think OpenSSH and OpenBSD just with this cents, will be poor more than

Zimbabwe. But ANY FUCKIN PERSON can choose what it's important for HIS

project? OpenBSD choose security, linux choose to sell cheese kernel

with cheese buggy software.

Why BSD license it's bad and GPL good? Fuck all. Anyone can choose what

he want. I choose OpenBSD and his philosophy...

Francesco

Jah.  Wow Linus, apparently making your code such that it is actually

stable and working is not a priority?  Infact, itstead of not being

a priority at all its actually considered BAD?
Linus is a nutjob!
--

Travers Buda

Don't knock masturbation; it's sex with someone I love! -Woody Allen
_________________________________________________________________

100s of Nikon cameras to be won with Live Search

http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/101719808/direct/01/

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 2:47 PM, Nuno Magalhces <nunomagalhaes@eu.ipp.pt>
I agree. This mailing list is an oven (and like an oven, comes out

with deliciousness in the end).
Anyway, I don't think of OpenBSD as a 'secure' system, I think of it

as a 'correct' system, and security is a side effect of that that's

good for marketing. Doesn't seem like Linus gets that. I could see

Linus' complaint better applied to SELinux or any of the thousands of

"hardened" linux distros, which try to build in security after the

fact and make a big deal of it.

-Nick

It's not that it isn't a balanced opinion or that he may be right or

wrong - it's that the guy was asking why they weren't following their

disclosure policy and no one has provided a sufficient answer as to
Coming from the GNU/Linux community I felt the same way for a while.

Then I started really looking at what my expectations were versus what

they should be.
In the Linux world I had grown used to expecting something in

particular. Despite no SLA or any other type of agreement, I expected

the community to support the distribution. When I made the change to

FreeBSD and OpenBSD, I brought those expectations with me.
Then I realised that was both selfish and foolish. Now my expectations

have changed. I expect to get an install CD and whatever swag I pay

for. Beyond that, I *hope* that if I have troubles that I can approach

the *BSD community and get some assistance but I realise that that

should never be an expectation and that I'm equally as likely to get a

"sorry, I value my time" as I am to get "you should look at the -<foo>

flag" - and that either response is ok.
Actually, allow me to correct the above. At the end of the day there

is one other expectation I have, and that is to be totally thrashed

for bringing something totally off-topic or meaningless or just plain

wrong to misc@.
Marco commented: *yawn* linus' opinion is as interesting as his relevance.
I say: +1
kmw

I'm not a monkey.

On 16-Jul-08, at 12:14 PM, Steve Shockley  
Hey but I am!  Pass the banana flavoured lube!
Oook oook oook!
Now could we return to useful conversation instead of feeding the

trolls?
-Bob

debian users are masturbating amoebas

just cannot imagine how could an amoeba jerk off....
--

With best regards,

	Gregory Edigarov

I try to imagine, but the amoeba splits.
Sort of like linux.
Paul.

is this really necessary? and if so why?

Yes it is.  To illustrate the stupidity and pointlessness of this all.
Linus is a troll, we know, who cares?

insulting anyone is IMHO hardly ever necessary/good, trolling (of known

folks, such as linus and rms) is (again IMHO) best ignored.

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 11:47 AM, Nuno Magalhces
because here, many people have spent many hours making sure tfm gives

you all the information you need

[...]
Absolutely! I find the OpenBSD man pages to be dead accurate, and

to-the-point. Typos, and grammar are considered too!
-Amarendra

On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 17:29:35 +0530
This looks like about as good a place as any to stick my 3" worth in,

tho' Nick Guenther also comes close to the mark with his comments about

system "correctness".  Linus is obviously worried about something of

more than passing import, and I think that he's begun to realize that

OBSD's "correctness" extends beyond code quality and technical security.
Linux is a Utopian product that carries substantial ideological baggage

rendering it's use problematic to business/commercial concerns _except_

by the largest of institutions.   *BSD has a license structure that makes

it commercially safe for use by small/medium business...  OpenBSD being

only the most consistent in this purpose with it's development of a genuine

engineering culture and product.
Utopian endevours all fall on their real intent to be all things to all

people, which, because of the inherent logical relationships of things like

consistency and completness, is a fruitless vanity.  Such "Complete" systems

require the deep hypocrisy of limiting "everything and everyone" in order

to function at all.  In political systems this is often evidenced by

"difficult" people just "disappearing" in ones and twos and droves.
Dhu (carry on in awareness!)

++