Theo de Raadt schrieb:
Hi Theo,

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> I hope that nothing I ever say holds back our developers or community

> from doing what is right.  I did not realize that the GNU and Linux

> kernel hackers were such dutiful slaves.

Well yeah, the system is called capitalism and many hackers behave like slaves in this or another way.

> If you see a fucked up system, do you want to fight it?  Or do you

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> want to defend the people who don't fight it?  I think you are an

> apologist for those who don't fight the system.

>

Many people see me rather as an open source dogmatist. Personally I am

trying to get the big picture WITHOUT being a fanboy of ANY OS.

>

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>> And also, as you all know, open documentation has gone a long way

>> till today.

>>

>

> No.  Open documentation has NOT gone a long way at all.

I only know that no hardware I used had been supported and there was no

documentation for it when I started running Linux - and that now many

companies share their information, from companies who did not even know

about FLOSS back then or would have declined to open source anything or

share any information. So, sure there is still also a long way to go,

but to say nothing has happened is also wrong and it would also mean

that OpenBSD has not accomplished anything in that matter?

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> You all think this is all about 2 kinds of video cards.  Video cards,

> video cards, video cards, video cards, video cards, video cards, video

> cards, video cards... cry cry cry.  what about all the rest of the

> things in a machine?

>

I cited that because it was falsely stated that Linux hackers have never

tried to change the situation and would do so now for the first time.

They sure havent done enough,  or focused too much on only a few

hardware bits like you pointed out. But that wasnt the point.

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> Where do you come up with this load of crap?  The eeepc has an

> UNDOCUMENTED ethernet chip and an UNDOCUMENTED wireless chip. 

Actually I have to admit that I just assumed that that would be the

case. I should have checked that.

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> What a load of crap.  You don't know what you are talking about.

> Everything else you said is exactly the same blathering; you are

> trying to say happy Linux things but there are no facts to support

> that the Linux crew or FSF has done ANYTHING which has gotten

> documentation for hardware out there.  They have failed to use their

> dominant position to anyone else, and they have done a damn poor job

> of even supporting themselves.

>   

Just for the records: Does this mean that you either count documentation

releases like AMDs,  as in fact NOTHING or  SOMETHING but has only

happened because of OpenBSD?
Also I thought Coreboot was a good idea. It is not?
> What did they do?  Linux developers and the companies that employ

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> them have spend the last ten years signing NDAs with vendors, and

> therefore only that very small group of people have the documentation.

> It's not even "lots of Linux developers" who have those docs; no, in

> each case it is typically 1-3 developers who have docs for a particular

> chipset, and then when a bug is found by an outsider he has to work without

> docs.

>

ACK

It wasnt my intention to anger anybody, but obviously I did. As it turns

out this is seen by some as not only a matter of truth but also

something very emotional. What I basically was trying to say is that

from my recognition this is not the first time Linux hackers have spoken

up. I cant make any prove against the cases you have made because I have

not investigated the matters in depth and it would take quite some time.
Regards,
Thilo
PS: Although I got a full rant from you I  want to say that I have

always liked your standpoint against proprietary drivers and for open

documentation, which was one of the reasons to partly switch to OpenBSD,

because I also felt that Linux hackers did not do and say enough. Anyway.