For some reason, earlier mail on the strawllman-thread did not make it
to the list. I'm copying parts of some of these mails inline. Note
that both mails were CC:'ed to misc@ (so they were intended to end up
on the list. As such, i don't think using them inline here is a
problem)

On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 11:31:51PM -0700, Theo de Raadt wrote:
| Don't worry.  You can ask rms if your behaviour is ethical.  He'll set
| you straight, and tell you to stop working for those companies and
| instead suckle off your McArthur Idiot grant.

Quiting your job at those companies is just 'some discomfort' :

On Tue, Dec 18, 2007 at 10:16:02PM +0100, Paul de Weerd wrote:
quoted text
> Helping people install non-free programs puts food on my plate. In
> fact, it enables me to make financial contributions to OpenBSD. It is
> of vital importance to me that I can install non-free programs, I
> literally need it to survive.
> 
> I don't think you will step up to the plate to support me financially
> when I decide to denounce non-free software and get fired as a
> consequence. So I do think I should help people install non-free
> programs. They want me to do so, so I do it.

On Wed, Dec 19, 2007 at 07:53:12PM -0500, Richard Stallman wrote:
quoted text
>     Helping people install non-free programs puts food on my plate.  In
>     fact, it enables me to make financial contributions to OpenBSD.  It is
>     of vital importance to me that I can install non-free programs, I
>     literally need it to survive.
>
> If someone points a gun at you and tells you to install non-free
> software, I would not criticize you for going along with him.  I
> wouldn't ask anyone to lay down his life for the free software
> movement.
>
> However, I expect you're exaggerating when you say that your situation
> is that grave.  There are many jobs people can do in the Netherlands.
> If you lost this particular job -- which could happen for many reasons
> -- the result would most likely just be some discomfort.

[note that, although I am Dutch, I currently do not live (or work) in
the Netherlands]

In the real world, people have jobs that, at the end of the day, pay
for the food on their plates and the roofs over their heads. In our
current world there are *very few* jobs in IT that do not deal with
non-free software in one way or another.

From my own experience, I've started as a Windows and NetWare guy.
Totally non-free software. I moved to supporting UNIX systems (HPUX,
Solaris and AIX with some Linux systems (with non-free parts added)
mixed in), mostly non-free software. I moved on to be admin of a mail
platform for a Dutch ISP. Much FreeBSD and other free software but we
had to use Windows for certain (administrative) tasks and were
required to use non-free anti-virus solutions. Then, I moved to
another ISP where I did UNIX support (for many different types of
UNIX, both free and non-free) and network admin for Cisco IOS and
Junipers JunOS (cisco routers and switches and juniper equipment could
be considered "appliances" like a microwave, still the software that
runs on them is non-free). I'm currently working for an American
software company in Switzerland, using mostly Linux for its servers.
The software my colleagues create (and ask me to install on those
Linux servers) is highly proprietary.

I've been working in IT for well over 10 years now. I can promise you
that, had I denounced non-free software, I would not have been able to
pay for my food or my rent/mortgage for the past 10 years.

I very much enjoy working with free software. Some of that stuff is
simply amazing. But it is not of this world to think that more than a
handful of people can make their living without ever touching non-free
software in this world. If you're waiting for this to happen : dont
hold your breath. 

Yes, there are many jobs people can do in the Netherlands (and in
other countries). My point is that most (if not all) IT-jobs require
the employee to somehow interface with non-free software. In the
general case, you can not simply refuse to work with non-free software
and expect to keep your job.

Paul 'WEiRD' de Weerd

| > On Jan 4, 2008 9:48 AM, Ioan Nemes <inemes@fairfieldcity.nsw.gov.au> wrote:
| > > You confusing the issue!  The software market - where you sell your product
| > > (i.e., software) is unethical,
| > > distorted and manipulated, and not by the ethical software crafters!
| > 
| > Why is the software market unethical? Because there are some bad
| > apples? Gee, that makes pretty much every single business sector
| > unethical. Unless you're trying to say that selling software in itself
| > is unethical but that's bullshit.
| > Who are the ethical software crafters? Does simply not charging money
| > for your software make you ethical?
| > Most OSS, for example, can be, and is, used by governments to oppress
| > the people. Does that make working on OSS unethical?
| > 
| > ---
| > Lars Hansson
| 

-- 
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