David:
The OpenBSD position is best expressed in this rather rude statement:
Shut up and code. RMS is a philosopher of the evangelical sort. Folks
here are a bit more pragmatic and want to code. A lot of us are infuriated
by this discussion.
You suggested that Theo might have Asbergers. As someone who has a nervous
condition that mimics Asbergers in certain aspects i will tell you that
arguing fast on a mailing list will do nothing but irritate me even if the
arguments are cogent. A person with a condition like that is easilly
distracted from imporatant work. So get it ?
Shut up and code !
If you want an OpenBSD that RMS would like, write a patch that would
remove the stuff he hates from the tree.
Even though i have not written anything for OpenBSD in years (1 port to
my credit) i am getting VERY frustrated with this discussion.
--- Marina Brown
On Fri, 14 Dec 2007, David H. Lynch Jr. wrote:
quoted text > Theo de Raadt wrote:
>>> Theo de Raadt wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hell, the OpenBSD ports tree should perhaps contain patches which
>>>> REMOVE such commercial operating system support. That's a fork
>>>> Richard would surely approve of.
>>>>
>>>> Richard, your pants are full of hypocritical poo.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I have no doubt that in some context Richard is hypocritical.
>>> Though most of us would be hard pressed to structure our lives
>>> to be consistent with our beleifs and principles to the extent
>>> that he has.
>>>
>>> But this is not about EMACS, nor is it about hypocracy.
>>>
>>
>> RMS made statements first. RMS will pay for his lies.
>>
> Why did I even bother.
>
> I was not trying to defend RMS or attack you.
> I was actually looking at the possibility that there might be some way
> of getting something positive out of this
> for OpenBSD. There is an obvious win-win for everybody, but you are
> fixated on revenge for imaginary slights.
>
>
> This sounds like something from my eight year old. You are 30something,
> Grow up.
> Do you really write your own email, or do you have some kid do them for
> you ?
>
> It is more important to you to catch Stallman in some mis-statement or
> lie than to even figure out what is best for OpenBSD ?
> Rather than figure out if there is anyway OpenBSD can benefit, it is
> more important to find a way to screw somebody else ?
>
> Every once in a while you show rationality and intelligence, and I think
> maybe there is some real value and real hope for
> OpenBSD, then you lob off a message like this one.
>
>> No. Nothing begs the question of what we do. We are not going to
>> change our process in any way as a result of what some loony retard
>> says.
>>
>>
> So if Richard adopted the BSD/ISC you would switch to the GPL just
> to spite him ?
>
>> We know _exactly_ what our principles are, and we are sticking to them
>> very clearly.
>>
> Yes, the screw RMS, Screw the FSF, and screw the world, and screw
> ourselves principle.
> Because frankly I can't see where you are following any other.
>
> Your position on closed hardware and binary blobs is exactly the same as
> Stallman's,
> and logically leads to the same position on software.
> Yet so far I have gotten no position on software - aside from the claim
> that Stallman somehow insulted OpenBSD.
> The only way his remarks could be taken as an insult, would be if you
> actually have the same principles.
> Even then it would be more of an uninformed error than an insult.
> It is not an insult for him to claim that you tacitly endorse non-free
> software - if you do.
>
> Whatever your principles are you are sticking to them so clearly that I
> do not even think most of the OpenBSD
> developers know what they actually are - well aside from the screw
> everybody else principle. That one seems abundantly clear.
>
>>> From the perspective of OpenBSD values,
>>> How far does the OpenBSD disdain for non-free software extend ?
>>>
>>
>> Richard does not stand in a position where he can ask that question
>> to us. Nor do you. We'll do what we want, and your questions don't
>> change anything.
>>
> Forget Richard, Forget me, Forget all the people you think have fucked
> you over.
> Instead of trying to figure out how to extract revenge, figure out what
> is best for OpenBSD.
>
> There is nothing wrong with doing what you want.
> But it sure as hell looks as if you are more interested in making
> certain that you do NOT do anything that richard might want.
> That anytime he says black, you are going to say white.
>
> In many circles I am known for having nearly an absolutist position on
> Free Speech. Your expressed position is even more absolutist than mine.
> Yet here you are telling others we can not even ask questions. My we
> have clay feet.
>
> Richard has actually answer the challenges you have thrown at him.
> In those instances where someone found that something that he
> recommended was not adhering to the standards he established,
> he commited to look into it and either fix it or revoke his recommendation.
> You refuse to deign to allow anyone else to ask questions.
>
>
>>> Establish what your principles and policies are or are going to be.
>>>
>>
>> We did. Years ago.
> I got it, OpenBSD is good, non-free software is good, but anything
> having anything to do with RMS is evil.
>
> Seriously, nothing I have read of any OpenBSD policies and
> principles is inconsistent with Richard's on this issue.
> If I am wrong about that, then OpenBSD has done a poor job of
> expressing its policies and principles.
> If I am right you are cutting off your nose to spite your face.
>
> This does not effect me personally one way or another.
> I could give a rats ass about the future of OpenBSD.
> Nor is this childish spat you seem to be having all by yourself
> with Richard
> of any consequence to me.
>
> Though I will conceede you are incredibly frustrating,
> how the hell can somebody so obviously intelligent,
> be so obviously self destructive and stupid at the same time.
>
> If one person calls you an ass, that's there problem.
> If ten people call you an ass, maybe you should think about it.
> If everyone on the planet outside your own cult calls you an ass,
> you are either the messiah or an ass. My money is on the latter.
>
>> Did you?
>>
>>
> Do you have turrets or aspergers or some other reason why you are
> compelled to insult virtually everyone ?
>
>>> Adhere to them and THEN if they are consistent with Richard's
>>> you can insist on his endorsement or burn him as a hypocrit.
>>>
>>
>> We do adhere to our principles very exactly. Richard does not adhere
>> to what he preaches.
>>
>> Richard came to our lists on a vendetta of hatred. Richard lied about
>> our project. Richard continues, and he won't stop, and therefore he
>> is an asshole. He'll get what he deserves -- we don't drop this issue
>> now that he's gone so far.
>>
>>
> Richard, Richard, Richard. You would think he is the anti-christ.
> Forget Richard, look after your own interests.
>
> Though Frankly, I suspect you will find that virtually every human
> outside the cult of OpenBSD,
> that gives enough of a damn to read Richards remarks would conclude that
> nothing he said insulted OpenBSD, and that they were accurate.
>
>>> If you are unwilling to adopt policies consistent with his,
>>> accept that you are not getting his endorsement and shut this thread
>>> down.
>>>
>>
>> Why do you get to tell people what threads should be shut down?
>>
> Fine blather away as you please. Atleast Don Quite was fighting
> against windmills for a worthwhile cause.
>
>> Why don't you mail Richard and tell him to stop mailing our lists?
>> Or are you his little brother?
>>
> I have e-mailed him. Pretty much the same thing I emailed you.
> I sugested that since on this specific issue I could see no conflict
> between what I percieve to be OpenBSD values and policies, that there
> had to be someway to reach common ground.
>
>
> But I do not speak for OpenBSD - you do.
> And you seem to fixated on revenge for imagined slights to look out
> for your own or OpenBSD's interests.
>
> There are values I share with you, some I share with Richard, and
> many I hold as my own.
> I have had heated private exchanges with Richard on several topics.
> But he has always been civil. He is a brilliant and shares many
> other traits with you.
> But he seems matured past eight, and realize that that whining and
> ranting is not going to get him anywhere.
>
>>
>> There is no cooperation between FSF and OpenBSD, and if Richard keeps
>> throwing poo at us, we will keep throwing poo right back at him and
>> his hyporcritical project.
>>
> I got it, if the fate of the human race depended on cooperation
> between the two of you,
> the rest of us need to bend over and kiss our asses goodbye,
> You would rather eat dog shit than concede there is any issue on the
> planet that Richard is not wrong about.
> If god came down and gave you a choice between a heaven with Richard
> in it and eternal damnation, you would pick
> eternal damnation.
>
>>
>>> Richard has offered you the oportunity to aquire his endorsement.
>>>
>>
>> That's bullshit. Richard came looking for a fight. I don't think he
>> expected to look this much like a loser.
>>
> Outside the cult of OpenBSD no one else sees it that way.
> The few people who are paying attention are trying to figure out why
> OpenBSD is more interested
> in pissing all over RMS than looking after its own interests,
> And Richard only looks stupid for beleiving there was any hope of
> rational discourse.
>>
>>> With very little effort OpenBSD could be the most significant OS
>>> with Richard Stallman's impratur
>>> certifying it as totally free.
>>>
>>
>> We are free. We don't need some uneducated guy who climbed up into
>> some high chair endorsing us; he is jealous of what we do, and that
>> noone else listens to him anymore.
>>
> If he is so jealous, why are you the ones whining because you can't
> get anybody to give you any money ?
> I read damn little besides sour grapes from the OpenBSD community.
>
> I think Shakespeare might have some advice - "the fault is not in
> our stars, but in ourselves".
> But what would I know, like Richard, I am just an uneducated twit.
>
> From what I can tell GPL/LGPL projects make up almost 75% of all
> FOSS projects, and BSD projects less that 6%.
> There are nearly as many projects under the new GPLv3 as the BSD
> License.
> Even Torvald's has gone from dead set against the GPLv3 to being
> willing to actually use it in some circumstances.
>
> All in all Richard has been doing quite well - despite graduating
> magna cum laude from Harvard and picking up two honorary doctorates and
> 1 honorary professorship - this year.
>
> If he gives a damn about OpenBSD at all, it is because if he could
> endorse it, he could use it as an effective club to beat on Linux
> distributions to get them to conform to his notions of free software.
> While gNewSense might actually be more popular than OpenBSD, OpenBSD is
> an actual real OS, with a real history even if it has damn few actual
> users. "Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?"
> He is not jealous of you. He just wants to use you as a means to much
> bigger ends. But god forbid that you might actually benefit from that.
> "Alas, alas for you, lawyers and pharisees, hypocrites that you are!
> Sure that the kingdom of Heaven awaits you; you will not venture half so
> far."
>
> I am not the leader of the RMS fan club, but personally, it seems
> like you can't figure out why he has the stature and attention he has,
> and you do not.
> Hey I can't figure out why Bill Gates is worth Billions and I am
> not. But I am not letting it eat me up.
>
> And while you are mail bombing Stallman - why don't you revive
> another childish blast from the past and lob a few kernel binaries at him.
>
> Do you actually read the crap you write ?
> Please tell me that you have aspergers, or are a paranoid schitz, so
> that there is a rational explanation for your behavior.
>
> I am not out to get you. Richard is not out to get you. The FSF is
> not out to get you. The world is not out to get you. But you appear to
> be out to get you.
> "You show people what you're willing to fight for when you fight
> your friends
