Hello,
First I apologize if this is not the good address to post this kind of

message. I didn't find a 'getting involved' link on the 0penBSD website.
Well, OpenBSD seems to care about quality, so as a developper I thought

this would be a good place to learn how to write better software.
To my mind software quality also depends on ease of use. So I would be

happy to help improve OpenBSD by making it easier to install and use.

But I don't know if you would be interesting by this kind of

'improvement'. I don't want to waste your time nor mine, so I ask first.
Let me know your opinion about this.
Anyway, I will first have to learn the system, so I should ask an

OpenBSD CD and book for christmas. :P
Best regards.

Improvements are always welcomed. Sends so diff's and people can see

if they feel it's improvement or not.
BR

dunceor

most developers are convinced the installer is about as easy to use as

possible.  other parts of the system could possibly use some

improvement, but keep in mind that "easy to use" and simple aren't the

same for many people, and openbsd really values simple.

I agree "easy to use" and sample are not the same for everyone. That's

why, to my mind, a good installer should provide several methods to

install. 
If you like the current way it works, you should be able to continue

with this system. But what if my mum, who has low computer skill, would

like to install a free, functional and secure system? I think the

software should help her to make the most accurate choices. Because I

think my mum too deserves a reliable operating system. :P
Best regards.

On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 08:44:35 +0100

Mathieu Stumpf <psychoslave@gmail.com> wrote:
MacOS may be a good choice for your mum?
To put my opinion in the right perspectine, I confess that I am a

newbie and have used Linux for some years relying heavily on GUI tools

for configuration and administration. My profession does not require

computing at all (!) and I will not even dream of writing any useful

code. I simply do not have the skills.
I think everyone understands your good intentions but (if you are new)

try to read this list for a few months and you will understand why

there is no graphical installer.
OBSD is primarily a tool for developers. Obviously, any project depends

on a large enough number of skillfull contributors. However, it has

been made clear that OBSD does not care about me or your mum, common

'users'. I do not take offence by this attitude. I believe that we

(users) are in the very fortunate position to be allowed to take

advantage of the effort made by all developers. And for free, nothing

is asked in return (except the the small token shown buying the CD

sets)!
Thank you Developers! Not only for giving me access to your software,

the education that comes with it is equally appreciated.
Back to your case or example, a mum with low computer skills. OBSD may

newer be the right choice for her. If difficulties installing the OS is

stopping her she will not likely be able to administrate her system

without help. This helpfull person will install OBSD and any (well,

almost any :-) application she would ever want or need. This is the

least difficult part in creating a functional OBSD desktop. The

installer and package management are easy for someone with basic

understanding of some the concepts common in all Unix-like systems.

Living with poorly documented hardware, some laptops or a box you don't

put together yourself, can be a much harder experience.
- Ulf

That's all fine, but your mum is probably not an OpenBSD developer.

The main target audience for OpenBSD are the developers. We make what

suits us. And we are not computer users with average or below average

skills. That does not mean we like to make things complicated, far

from that. We do however expect our users to have some knowledge and

skills. 
Luckily there are a lot of people around that have similar views and

needs as the developers.  Any other person or group liking the results

is free to use it for whatever thay want. Maybe to make something

that's easier to install for *their* intended audience. But that

installer probably won't make it into the base system. 
Please do not read this as a discouragement to get involved. But if

you want to create something that supposed to go into the base system,

it really should cater for the needs of the main body of users.
	-Otto

Rather than changing the installer, or for that matter, NIC setup,

rclocal or any other config issuee, I would suggest (and someday will

work on) better documentation for what I call Novices.  Something to

bridge the gap between the generic "Mom" and the FAQ and man pages, yet

alone between "Mom" and "Absolute OpenBSD".  
My own personal philosophy with novices is to focus on CLI skills and

only use startx with a window manager to run a specific GUI app such as

a graphical web browser or to preview a postscript file prior to

printing it.  To me, OpenBSD is perfect for this as an OS for teaching

good skills.
I have a book started, working title "NoviceDoc" designed to take

someone who has not clue about computers, what a "disk" is or anything

else, through installing an free OS, to writing and printing a letter.

Its not yet at rough-draft state (e.g. written off the top of my head so

some facts [e.g. the unix history chapter] lacking references) so not

ready for distribution.  The last time I looked at the whole thing (its

written in LaTex in chapter files), I think I've covered all the

hardware topics and the what-is-unix chapter.  
Anyway, the documentation approach is what I've taken to address making

OpenBSD easier for "mom" to use.  
Doug.

I've always wondered what kind of other projects the OpenBSD

developers are working on these days. When you read through the

OpenBSD lists and docs, you can see clearly that the above is true.
I'm no developer, but I've found openbsd to be a great network

firewall and router. A nice side affect of developers building an OS

that suits them for their needs.
So, if you care to share, what kinds of projects (not OpeBSD itself)

are you developing? (I understand if you can't share, due to employer

I disagree.
	A complex interface implies a lot of code. a lot of code

leads to  unreliablity, either through bugs or detracting valuable

developer time from more important things 
	A simple interface (well designed) imples less code, which leads

to reliability.
	Users who can no invest the effort learn enough to use a simple

interface do not deserve a reliable operating system. They deserve windows,

and they deserve pop up buttong in their browsers that they click ok blindly

for everything. 
	-Bob

When I read that, it sounded a lot to me like saying "if you're not a

skilled medical practitioner, you don't deserve decent health care."

Seems to me one of the better aspects of our society is our ability

to allow specialists to provide good services to non-specialists (or

at least those who can afford to pay for it).  So sure, from a

practical standpoint people with above average computer skills are

always going to have better experiences with computers, but that

doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't try to even it out.
Jeremy

more like, the supermarket sells two types of meat, raw and frozen.

if you don't learn to cook, you have to eat the frozen food.  the

production is more involved and you pay more for it, but the end

result is not as good.

Isn't it how it is already. If you don't pay to the teeth for your

health care already, you have to go where your HMO force you to go and

they may think you might get medical attentions or not. Not really your

choice! And that is if you are lucky to have Health care coverage in the

first place. Makes no mistake about it. Your doctor will not go to the

same HMO doctor they you would be force to go. Well, since you are in

Canada, it may not be as bad, but never the less the idea is the same.
Now the original question was how to participate in it, the answer was

provided and don't forget that it's been clear for ever that OpenBSD is

developer by it's developers for the developers and we are just lucky to

get the benefit of it.
So, what was your point already...?

Yes -- when those specialists are paid.

Also, OpenBSD is not a service to be deserved.  It is a labour of love;

the object of that labour is OpenBSD itself not the great unwashed

masses.  Health care is provided by healthcare service providers (paid

or not) hopefully also as a labour of love; the object of that labour is

the recipient of the care.  Note the difference.
Doug (RN).

The differences still aren't all that different. OpenBSD also has

limited resources (particularly developer time) and constraints under

which it operates.  In the end the guy that does his homework and

invests the effort will have more benefit from it. The Health system,

no matter what country, is the same in that particular respect. The

guy who keeps himself healthy will get the liver transplant before the

guy who is smoking and drinking and weighs 300 pounds.  No amount of

whining about "but I deserve a click ok for a liver button, the health

care system should invest resources to provide me one" is going to

change that. 
	-Bob

Absolutely.  You guys deserve to get paid for what you do (insofar as

there are enough people willing to pay you for what you do), nor are

you obligated to tailor the operating system for any particular class

of user.  I don't think either of those mean that non-technical

people deserve bad software, it just means they have to find someone

who is both a good programmer and has a desire to make simpler

interfaces for money.  That programmer will probably build on top of

your work.  Hopefully that'll all fall into place some time in the

not-too-distant future.

I love this one. May be will need a bob.c along side the theo.c soon

too! (;>

Only if Theo decides to make OpenBSD an "Adult" operating system, and I

don't mean you need the wisdom of age to understand it. :)
Nick.

This cracked me up. There is really a deep good sense of humor on misc@

as well. (;>
I just popped open a beer to that.
Best,
Daniel

So, you mean a more intuitive software is necessary more complex? Can't
Do you apply this reasoning to anything in life or do you reserve this

kind of eugenics only to IT? :)

It's reality.
//art

I couldn't agree more, people expect that they will have to take some

time to learn to ride a bike, operate a car, cook a new dish, and etc.

 But by god their computer better just work.  I started out "life" as

a pc tech at a large company, i can't tell you the number of times

i've heard "but i don't want to learn how to do it" or "i just can't

understand computers" or "I shouldn't have to learn how to do it, it

should be eaiser" and we weren't talking about developing a diff for

the kernel then rebuilding the entire base system from source, it was

typically something simple like changing the background color in a

power point presentation.
-Josh

I don't apply it - It's just reality. A group of people

participating in something will get what they deserve based on the

collective effort and thought they put into things, whether it's a group

of one, or 300,000,000.
	Examples:
	- Operating Systems

	- Applications

	- Democratically Elected Leadership }8->
	TANSTAAFL.. Your effort and education determine how good any of the

above will be..  An Operating system for morons will be hmm.. moronic.

A government eleceted by morons will be.. moronic.  The result is a

direct reflection of the process and participants. 
	-Bob

Agreed.
and as a relatively new user.. and coming from the linux world. I

found the openbsd installer to be the SIMPLEST I have ever used.

Setting aside disklayout and slicing, I've yet to give OpenBSD to my

fellow students and experience problems.
~J

Start by learning how to use the system. then start reading

source code and posting small diffs of your suggestions to change it.
	When you post a diff, be sure to keep the diff small,

succinct, and solving one "issue" at a time. 
	Do not be disappointed if the developers do not agree

with your diff or your issue - as a newbie you will probably

not get it right the first, or even the seventh time. 
	repeat this process until someone takes you under their

wing and sponsors you for real commit access.
	-Bob

1. Pick an area that you are interested in.

2. Fix bug / add useful (non superfluous feature)

3. Send diff to tech@

4. Await flames or see diff getting committed

5. Repeat several time until someone notices good quality and you'll get

   invited to play
We are always looking for good people.