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Thus Theo de Raadt <deraadt@cvs.openbsd.org> spake Thu, 01 Nov 2007


Hi list, hi Theo,

IMO it's worse than annoying when language like the one you really
like to use is used on a (public) mailing list where grown up people try
to do some work -- regardless of being _paid_ for doing this work or
doing it _voluntarily_. It's just a question of being _nice_ and paying
attention to something like an _etiquette_ people around the world
usually do. It's just a matter of fact that _you_ are well known for
being 'difficult', having an 'abrasive personality', etc. [0]

Also well known (and documented) is your use of language on (not only
OpenBSD's) mailing lists. Everybody on the net can use her/his favorite
search engine and will get gazillions of hits. Or go to slashdot. Your
'use' of language is almost legendary (but not in a sense that it's
positive).

There are some things I'd like to point out (mainly to show _why_ this
_bothers_ me, and why _you_ should pay attention, too):

i) Theo, you are the (main) representative of the OpenBSD project. As
such, you have _a mission_. Neither I nor anybody else on the planet
thinks it would be an advantage for you or the OpenBSD project to kiss
about six billion butts on this planet; but this does NOT mean that you
should do quite the opposite of it and scream at everybody except your
best 20 developer buddies.

Theo, you are well-known thoughout the internet, as well as your use
of language which is more coprolalia [1] than communicating. Noteworthy
is the fact that, mostly in contrast to the GNU/Linux community, BSD
folks are well-known as _mature_ people who know how to behave. It's
not only about the work a developer does, but also _how_ he does it --
this includes communications with the rest of the world.

This behaviour of yours leads directly to problems with

ii) OpenBSD (and the OpenBSD project), and its deployability (also,
but not exclusively, at customers).

In the ...
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[OT rant]

Who are you to complain about top-posting and then running in a
fullquote?  Who are you to waste precious developer time by writing such
a nonsensical mail to multiple(!) mailing lists?  Who are you wanting to
teach manners to a grown up?  Your goal might be noble, but in this
context you're nothing but a troll, since the moment you appeared on
this list.  Fuck! (sic)  Grow up and ignore the stuff you don't like or
simply walk away.

That was the last brownie from me, no more food for you.
  simon

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Thus Simon 'corecode' Schubert <corecode@fs.ei.tum.de> spake Sun, 04



Ouch. Who is the grown up? Theo? No, he continually uses the language
of a three-year-old child stuck in the anal phase.




What part of my email did *you* read _and_ understand? Obviously _not_
the part that I _like_ OpenBSD, but I _dislike_ how it's being


Have a nice day!

Timo
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Then fork OpenBSD. Sitting here and whining about how it is "being
destroyed" just makes you look like a jerk. BSD puts the power in the
your hands to fix things when you don't like how they are going. This is
done by forking. If everything was a perfect world, then there would
only be one version of BSD which solved everybody's problems, one
distribution of Linux which solved everybody's problems, etcetera, but
it isn't.

If you're not willing to fork, or provide objective criticism of
something other than "Theo is an asshole" (I mean come on, we've heard
about this for like 15+ years), then that makes you an asshole too.
While Theo might not have the best etiquette, at least he gives a damn,
and really when it comes to it, that's all that matters, because BSD and
free software in general are about _computing_, not manners and
etiquette.

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Thus William Pitcock <nenolod@sacredspiral.co.uk> spake Sun, 04 Nov


First, I'm not whining. I pointed something out. That's a big
difference even a developer should know. (I do.)

Second, it does not really affect _me_ if OpenBSD passes by. But it
will affect others.




What part of my email did you actually read _and_ understand? (I like




What a tiny world you live in. Who uses computers? Think of Henry Ford.

Best wishes,

Timo
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None.
My understanding is that it is demented gibberish.

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I do not want to start moderating the mail that goes to the pcc-list.
Please spend the time finding and fixing bugs in pcc instead. 
If anyone of you have personal issues with each other, DO NOT DISCUSS IT 
HERE.

And, as Kjell Wooding wrote, I can top-post to the mailing list as much 
as I want :-)

-- Ragge


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I took this off the PCC list (by request). I figured I would share an
article as I think that it pertains (and might help convince some that
others here aren't degenerate or offensive lunatics):
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5i0uWMHXnLI6Ob4YfsDQU8BC8Vtvg
http://www.infoniac.com/science/swearing-workplace-boosts-productivity.html

- --
Coleman Kane
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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Stop fucking signing mails to a public list that is BEYOND fucking  
annoying and all by itself proves that you're a clueless fuckwit.  
STFU and GTFO. 

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Timo Schoeler wrote:
< theo was particularly rude to me and uses coarse language despite my 
being a useful member of the community >

timo,

you're definitely not the first nor shall you be the last person that 
theo calls a bunch of names, whether the names are fitting or not. when 
you consider that he has run this project for as long as he has, taking 
the the funding problems into special consideration, you gotta cut him 
some slack. he has called me a number of names but i don't sweat it 
because (1) they were sweeping and inaccurate and (2) it's theo, he's 
got a real short fuse AFAICT.

namecalling occurs on many mailing lists and much goes unnoticed, albeit 
more subtly delivered than in this case. as childish as you feel the 
namecalling is, it is even more childish to take names you are called to 
heart. also consider that it is excessively rare for posters on this 
list to be actively censored, a true delight IMO, a rarity amongst lists 
laden with oversensitive and insecure ;) computer folks. whether this is 
done to accommodate theo or because people here actually believe in some 
sort of freedom of speech i am not sure, i enjoy it regardless.

most of what theo says is spot-on but when he gets worked up there is 
bound to be some collateral damage. AFAICT your case is one of these and 
you shouldn't sweat it if theo calls you a "raging slashdot dumbfuck who 
never submits diffs", etc, etc. frankly, i would rather have the 
situation as-is with theo because being a supporter of a group run by 
someone who walks on eggshells around oversensitive folks in order to 
get on their good side and receive myriad small donations from them is 
patently lame IMO. hell, i fully expect that, given the opportunity, 
theo will call me plenty more names in the time to come but i don't 
really give a shit =)

cheers,
jake

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I know I shouldn't feed the trolls, but Sorry, Could Not Resist:

Timo--

There are two ways to read your email:

1. You are trying to make a point about how to best lead the OpenBSD project.

2. You're being a jerk who's venting some kind of irrational pent up
anger, and you're trying to publicly smear and humuliate Theo.


In case it's (1):

I don't know if you noticed, but OpenBSD is under the BSD license.
Theo and most OpenBSD developers espouse a no-nonsense,
tell-the-truth-consequences-be-darned, code-is-better-than-emails,
shut-up-and-hack, it's-about-the-fucking-code-stupid approach.

If you really believe that your way works better, go ahead and fork.
Make your TimoBSD, where you are absolutely free to set the tone in
any way you want. If you really believe that your way works better,
then prove your point. Put your words into action and see if you
attract more and better developers and if you can produce better code
with TimoBSD. OpenBSD is widely considered the most secure OS bar
none, has only had 2 remote exploits in over 10 years, yadda, yadda,
yadda. The NetBSD bellends argued similarly to what's in your email,
and OpenBSD, after starting as a NetBSD fork, is now twice as popular
as NetBSD, without even ever trying to win any kind of popularity
contests. ( http://tinyurl.com/28zowl ) I dare say, Theo has been
proved correct. But again, if you want to revisit the old and lame
style-vs-substance debate, go right ahead. Code is better than emails.
Try to make TimoBSD have better code than OpenBSD with your style over
substance approach. I dare you and I double-dare you. See how far you
get.

In case it's (2):

I have recently learned that it can on occasion be quite helpful to
seek assistance from qualified mental health professionals. I would
kindly suggest you do the same.

Sincerely,
--ropers

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Which part of my email did you actually read _and_ understand? The

Too little, too late, pal. You have to _learn_ polemics before trying

Best regards,

Timo
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Not feeding a troll is better than posting childish replies like the
one you posted.

regards
VK

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Thus "vivek khurana" <mailing.vivek@gmail.com> spake Sun, 4 Nov 2007

What is a troll, btw? Someone who's raising a discussion to keep
something alive or enhance things?

Best regards,

Timo
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Second thought, you don't even have to fork. Your TimoBSD already
exists. It's called NetBSD. You can go right ahead and join them. They
rule by committee, they are known to have been "nice" (i.e.
politically correct but inhumane and bonkers**), and I'm sure with
your masterful efforts you will lead them to world domination.

--ropers

**For crissakes, they even substituted their really cool logo with a
bland flag, for fear of offending their valued anti-swearing,
evolution-denying "reborn" US-American "Christian" audience.

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Where's your facts? I pointed out how OpenBSD could receive more

You missed the recent developments WRT Wasabi.

You obviously miss the point that without NetBSD OpenBSD would just

Talk to your psychiatrist, maybe (s)he really can fix your problem,

Is that _my_ problem?

Best wishes,

Timo
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EU bank transfer - Receipt

Sender:	 Jens Ropers
Recipient:	OpenBSD
Oostveld Kouter 13
9920 Lovendegem
Belgium
IBAN:	BE93737017743767
BIC-/SWIFT-Code:	KREDBEBB
Amount:	10.00 EUR
Comment:	Jens Ropers
I cannot afford anything right now
but I just had to send this as a
response to Timo Schoelers BS mail.
Your EU bank transfer order has been dispatched on 04.11.2007 at 11:50 h.

PS:
Anybody else care to join me and chip in on this occasion?
See http://www.openbsd.org/donations.html

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