On 10/31/07, Theo de Raadt <deraadt@cvs.openbsd.org> wrote:
	> They don't need a list.  They could already have started coding.  Yet

	> we see how few people actually do start coding.  Instead, they choose

	> to write in english...
	How can we get started on the code unless we have some idea of where

	to start on the code? Sure we could just code whatever, but why would

	we waste time on things that may be useless?
	> > Obviously patches will be subject to peer review. Even if a patch isn't

	> > approved, the coder should have learned something new and useful.

	>

	> Yeah, right.
	I don't understand. Is newbies learning new things a waste to you? Do

	you think they won't really learn anything unless the patch is

	approved? Or will the patches not be subject to peer review? Or are

	you worried at who would pass for peer review getting overwhelmed by a

	huge volume of poor quality patches?
Man, you've got a lot of anger to deal with.

On 31.10-08:40, Theo de Raadt wrote:
and i would suggest that the severe and prevelant attitude toward the

possibilty of poor patches or under-educated actions is the most

significant barrier to encouraging new/young developers.

No, the severe and prevelent attitude toward the possiblilty of poor

patches or under-educated actions is what makes OpenBSD the most

secure operating system on the planet. It's not perfect but it works.

It is a high stress environment to work in, and guess what, you have

to be prepared to have your work criticized, often brutally. It often

makes the people who must do that criticism look callous, and heck, it's

not fun to do.. This is why we'd prefer people get up to speed on their

own so we have to do it less. Do you think people like having to tell

people their work sucks? Now of course your work would never suck, but

get real, look at 99% of the software you see out there. People's work

*usually* sucks, and none of us are immune from that. 
	Our experience has been that people who can't learn how

stuff works and find an area they are *passionate* about to work in

do not survive the necessary scrutiny to get completed work done

in that environment. They give up because it's too hard.
	So please stop wasting our time, unless you wish to prove us

wrong - which will merely prove us right and gain us another developer

if you manage it. 
	-Bob

Well that's the point of it; or at least, a useful side-effect.

Linux can get away with sending fanboi masses at its code because it's

fine with fanboi masses poking at all parts of the kernel, no matter

how secure it may be. Right?

On 31.10-11:12, Nick Guenther wrote:
i think we'll simply agree to disagree.  i personally find it quite

disheartening to hear the attitude that prevails here but that's the

community's decision.  it certainaly seems to refelect the attitute

of it's leaders (developers).
--

        t

 t

                 w

I don't know about that, but the bug list seems to work well around

here.  The time I submitted a patch, it was for some dinky little

bug that probably no one would ever hit (who's playing text mode

star trek these days?) but Theo picked it up in a day or two.  While

some dinky little bug reports I sent to other less "elitist" projects

have sat out there for years.  I can understand, a lot of projects,

free or otherwise, fall into the trap of having to make a low

priority queue and then never being able to read out of that queue,

but it's a little discouraging when it happens all the same.  So

if I were ever able to do much of anything, I'd probably want to

try here over those other places, even if there was a risk of looking

silly and being told as much.
--

Mike Small

smallm@panix.com

Consider it the voice of experience (bitter).
Its easy to tell which ones are the programmers.
They write code, then they submit it, it does not suck too much and they

take the suggestions of the current project leads. Then they resubmit

better code.
The rest of us should simply buy CD's, ask and answer the occasional

question, and other wise keep quiet.
When you run a Data Centre, that has thousands of users serving tens of

thousands of customers who need medical services on a 24 hour basis, you

will miss the hand holding and warm friendly thoughts less; and

appreciate the complete documentation and conformity to that

documentation way way WAY more.
BTW I was a Linux user from kernel .92 ( that is some time in 1994 )

through 2.6.  Trying to run that professionally was always fun and

exciting. Man I don't miss that.

Buy CD's until you get into the situation I got into with Vim Vandeputte

- ordered a hoodie as a xmas present, he said he can ship it until xmas,

and the first reply was after xmas.
Take this, add the name calling and unfriendly atmosphere on the mailing list

and you have an explanation why the OpenBSD isn't more popular than is

- because there are factors that motivate people away from OpenBSD.
More popular OpenBSD means more people sending donations.

Your first problem is that you think this is some kind of popularity

contest. It isn't. No one cares as much that openbsd adoption

increases as they do about it being a good system. No one ever has.

That's why no one will be sad when I call you a tool. Tool.
You are the latest (again and again) in a long string of whiners. If

you can't tell from the general tones of the responses you've gotten,

your drivel bores people. Your whining doesn't contribute to anything

useful, so you're not going to get anywhere with it. You're really

just a bona fide troll.
DS

Can we stop the thread here please? You are not contributing anything

positive to the discussion.
And anybody else that doesn't have anything positive to add to this

and any other thread please refrain from posting.
Developers can say whatever they want, OpenBSD is their project.

Actually, it's Theo's project.
But everybody else please stop the insanity. Nobody is whining or

trolling here. Except those that insist in calling names and posing as

mean. Probably because they think it's cool to be mean in the OpenBSD

mailing list.
Guess what. You only look stupid.
Just because developers pose as mean doesn't grant you any right to do

so. It doesn't mean it's right either.
Instead of replying and replying, and bashing the newcomers, could you

please SHUT UP! and hack?. There would be no long whining and trolling

threads if everybody thought before hitting "reply" and preferably

ignored the supposedly trolls' and whiners' posts.
To Karel and the rest asking legitimate questions, don't take offense.

Developers can't invest time in teaching, or writing roadmaps, or todo

lists. Period.
Stop arguing or giving ideas. Nobody is listening.
And don't even think of taking offense from the rest. Sadly, those

"mean" posts are the result of a trend that started some years ago,

from the newcomers by the way.
P.S. Sorry Darren for directing it to you. Nothing personal! ;-) You

just happened to be the last poster.

--

Gerardo Santana

There is no community that you speak of.
There are people who write diffs, and people who _don't_ write diffs.
In that sub-group of people who don't write diffs, there are a few who

whine loudly and say we are the reason why.  Boo hoo.
If you're not going to write diffs, stop being whiny babies who say

that you don't write diffs because of us....  either step up to the

plate or shut up.
geez, is this kindergarden?

Not yet, despite valiant efforts to the contrary.
CDs shipped today. I might even use 'em.

I do use this list. One of few refuges of sanity.

On 31.10-09:53, Theo de Raadt wrote:
i do write diffs.  i have never suggested that you (or any other

developer on this list) are a motivating factor in that, positive or

negative.  the fact that i haven't yet writen an openbsd diffs is a

seperate issue.
quite what all this has to do with whether the janitor list is

productive or not is beyond me.  you have stated you don't believe

it is, the only reason the discussion continues is around name

calling.
it is all rather perverse and certainaly not a motivator to contibute.

i expect that to be no loss to those here.
--

        t

 t

                 w

There is a list as pointed out by others.
As evidenced by your ubiquitous emails on the subject, I'll put it

simply:  you don't get it, nor will you probably ever get it.  An

important theme of OpenBSD is simplicity, in this case that is applied

by simply coding, not adding complexity to the situation by writing

endless emails to a mailing list.
Greg
--

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http://lodesertprotosites.org

Dethink to survive - Mclusky

Instead of doing something useful like reading code, identifying and

trying to fix bugs, you are whining on misc@ asking ``why are you guys

mean and don't tell me what to do'' stop and think about this attitude

for a second, please.
Development is an involved process, it takes a lot of reading and

commitment to get to the point where you're actually able to do

something useful, and no list or misc@ chit-chat will change it.