Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta.

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To: Press, Jonathan <Jonathan.Press@...>

Cc: Peter Zijlstra <peterz@...>, <linux-kernel@...>, <malware-list@...>, <hch@...>, <andi@...>, <viro@...>, <alan@...>, Arjan van de Ven <arjan@...>

Subject: Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta.

Date: Monday, August 18, 2008 - 6:02 am

Press, Jonathan wrote:
quoted text>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: malware-list-bounces@dmesg.printk.net [mailto:malware-list-
>> bounces@dmesg.printk.net] On Behalf Of Peter Zijlstra
>> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 6:37 AM
>> To: Helge Hafting
>> Cc: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org; malware-list@lists.printk.net;
>>     
> hch@infradead.org;
>   
>> andi@firstfloor.org; viro@ZenIV.linux.org.uk;
>>     
> alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk; Arjan van
>   
>> de Ven
>> Subject: Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta.
>>
>> On Fri, 2008-08-15 at 12:07 +0200, Helge Hafting wrote:
>>     
>>> It seems to me that this "scan on file open" business is the
>>> wrong way to do things - because it reduces performance.
>>>
>>> If you scan on file open, then your security sw is too late and
>>> getting in the way.
>>>       
>
> The problem is that you have to account for the cases where the malware
> made it onto the system even if you were trying to catch it ahead of
> time.  For example:
>
> - Administrator turns off or reduces AV protection for some reason for
> some period of time.  It happens all the time.
>   
Everything is "dirty" again when AV sw restarts.
quoted text> - New infection makes it onto the machine before the signatures have
> caught up with it.  This also happens.  There is an ongoing PR race
> among AV vendors about who was faster on the draw to get out signatures
> to detect some new malware.  The fact that this race exists reflects
> that reality that there is some window during which new malware will
> make it onto some number of machines before the scanners catch up.
>   
And when new signatures arrive, everything is dirty again. Well, you can 
optimize
and say that everything only need to be checked with the new signatures,
since they passed the old ones already. Maybe that helps performance a 
little.

The "clean" concept works fine, just make sure dirtying happens in all these
extra cases.


Helge Hafting
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Messages in current thread:

TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Eric Paris, (Wed Aug 13, 12:36 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., 7v5w7go9ub0o, (Wed Aug 13, 8:14 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., 7v5w7go9ub0o, (Wed Aug 13, 10:25 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Andi Kleen, (Wed Aug 13, 2:17 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Mihai , (Wed Aug 13, 8:18 pm)

RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Press, Jonathan, (Thu Aug 14, 7:58 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Mihai , (Thu Aug 14, 8:34 am)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Eric Paris, (Wed Aug 13, 2:40 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., H. Peter Anvin, (Wed Aug 13, 2:21 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Arjan van de Ven, (Wed Aug 13, 2:24 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Arjan van de Ven, (Wed Aug 13, 1:39 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Pavel Machek, (Fri Aug 15, 12:06 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Mon Aug 18, 8:21 am)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Pavel Machek, (Mon Aug 18, 9:30 am)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Mon Aug 18, 8:03 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Thu Aug 14, 9:31 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Eric Paris, (Wed Aug 13, 2:57 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Thu Aug 14, 5:46 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Thu Aug 14, 9:37 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Arjan van de Ven, (Thu Aug 14, 9:46 am)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Arjan van de Ven, (Wed Aug 13, 5:39 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Eric Paris, (Thu Aug 14, 10:12 am)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Helge Hafting, (Fri Aug 15, 6:07 am)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Fri Aug 15, 6:44 am)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Peter Zijlstra, (Fri Aug 15, 6:37 am)

RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Press, Jonathan, (Fri Aug 15, 9:10 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Helge Hafting, (Mon Aug 18, 6:02 am)

RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Fri Aug 15, 12:25 pm)

RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Press, Jonathan, (Fri Aug 15, 12:30 pm)

RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Fri Aug 15, 1:33 pm)

RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Press, Jonathan, (Fri Aug 15, 1:40 pm)

RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Fri Aug 15, 1:47 pm)

RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Press, Jonathan, (Fri Aug 15, 2:17 pm)

RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Fri Aug 15, 4:08 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Fri Aug 15, 2:06 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Theodore Tso, (Fri Aug 15, 4:17 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Fri Aug 15, 4:05 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Fri Aug 15, 9:18 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Theodore Tso, (Fri Aug 15, 1:04 pm)

RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Press, Jonathan, (Fri Aug 15, 2:09 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Helge Hafting, (Mon Aug 18, 6:09 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Mon Aug 18, 6:25 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Peter Zijlstra, (Mon Aug 18, 6:14 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Mon Aug 18, 6:24 am)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Arjan van de Ven, (Thu Aug 14, 11:57 am)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Theodore Tso, (Wed Aug 13, 2:15 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Eric Paris, (Wed Aug 13, 3:02 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Theodore Tso, (Wed Aug 13, 3:29 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Thu Aug 14, 5:30 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Theodore Tso, (Thu Aug 14, 9:24 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Eric Paris, (Thu Aug 14, 9:48 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Theodore Tso, (Thu Aug 14, 11:50 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Pavel Machek, (Fri Aug 15, 10:37 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Eric Paris, (Thu Aug 14, 1:29 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Theodore Tso, (Thu Aug 14, 3:17 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Christoph Hellwig, (Thu Aug 14, 3:34 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Theodore Tso, (Thu Aug 14, 3:41 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Thu Aug 14, 9:44 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Theodore Tso, (Thu Aug 14, 10:04 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Alan Cox, (Fri Aug 15, 4:51 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Fri Aug 15, 12:48 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Arjan van de Ven, (Thu Aug 14, 11:41 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Fri Aug 15, 1:05 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Fri Aug 15, 1:36 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Johannes Weiner, (Fri Aug 15, 1:12 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Fri Aug 15, 1:28 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Christoph Hellwig, (Thu Aug 14, 4:20 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., J. Bruce Fields, (Thu Aug 14, 5:21 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Theodore Tso, (Thu Aug 14, 7:34 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., J. Bruce Fields, (Tue Aug 19, 5:43 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Eric Paris, (Thu Aug 14, 3:20 pm)

RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Press, Jonathan, (Thu Aug 14, 8:03 am)

RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Thu Aug 14, 8:27 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Pavel Machek, (Fri Aug 15, 10:31 am)

RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Press, Jonathan, (Wed Aug 13, 5:15 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Arjan van de Ven, (Wed Aug 13, 2:21 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Thu Aug 14, 5:18 am)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Greg KH, (Wed Aug 13, 12:57 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Alan Cox, (Wed Aug 13, 12:24 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Arnd Bergmann, (Thu Aug 14, 9:00 am)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Christoph Hellwig, (Wed Aug 13, 1:07 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Eric Paris, (Wed Aug 13, 12:47 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Alan Cox, (Wed Aug 13, 12:37 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Eric Paris, (Wed Aug 13, 1:00 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Alan Cox, (Wed Aug 13, 3:59 pm)

RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Press, Jonathan, (Wed Aug 13, 5:24 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Rik van Riel, (Wed Aug 13, 5:35 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Jan Harkes, (Fri Aug 15, 4:16 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Arjan van de Ven, (Fri Aug 15, 6:05 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Eric Paris, (Sun Aug 17, 7:19 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Alan Cox, (Mon Aug 18, 11:33 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Rik van Riel, (Mon Aug 18, 12:43 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Arjan van de Ven, (Sun Aug 17, 7:26 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., David Collier-Brown, (Sun Aug 17, 5:11 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Alan Cox, (Wed Aug 13, 5:23 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Eric Paris, (Thu Aug 14, 11:25 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Alan Cox, (Wed Aug 13, 5:13 pm)

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