Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta.

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To: Theodore Tso <tytso@...>

Cc: Christoph Hellwig <hch@...>, Eric Paris <eparis@...>, <tvrtko.ursulin@...>, <alan@...>, <andi@...>, Arjan van de Ven <arjan@...>, <linux-kernel@...>, <malware-list@...>, <malware-list-bounces@...>, <peterz@...>, <viro@...>

Subject: Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta.

Date: Friday, August 15, 2008 - 12:48 am

On Thu, 14 Aug 2008, Theodore Tso wrote:

quoted text> On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 06:44:33PM -0700, david@lang.hm wrote:
>> could you do something like defining a namespace inside posix attributes
>> and then setting up a mechanism in the kernel to alert if the attributes
>> change (with the entire namespace getting cleared if the file gets
>> dirtied)?
>
> According to Eric Paris the clean/dirty state is only stored in
> memory.  We could use the extended attribute interface as a way of not
> defining a new system call, or some other interface, but I'm not sure
> it's such a great match given that the extended attributes interface
> are designed for persistent data.
>
> I agree that doesn't actually work very well for the tracker use case,
> where you the clean/dirty bit to be persistent (in case the tracker is
> disabled due to the fact you are running on battery, for example, and
> then you reboot).

why would you not want the results of the viris scan to be persistant?

assuming that you are not dual-booting( or otherwise taking explicit 
action to go around the OS), the fact that you scanned the file with 
signature set 123 is just as valid now as it was yesterday.

If you are not trying to work around the actions of root, why are you 
trying to work around the actions of the person who has physical control 
of the system? (who could easily become root if they wanted to)

David Lang
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Messages in current thread:

TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Eric Paris, (Wed Aug 13, 12:36 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., 7v5w7go9ub0o, (Wed Aug 13, 8:14 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., 7v5w7go9ub0o, (Wed Aug 13, 10:25 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Andi Kleen, (Wed Aug 13, 2:17 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Mihai , (Wed Aug 13, 8:18 pm)

RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Press, Jonathan, (Thu Aug 14, 7:58 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Mihai , (Thu Aug 14, 8:34 am)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Eric Paris, (Wed Aug 13, 2:40 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., H. Peter Anvin, (Wed Aug 13, 2:21 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Arjan van de Ven, (Wed Aug 13, 2:24 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Arjan van de Ven, (Wed Aug 13, 1:39 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Pavel Machek, (Fri Aug 15, 12:06 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Mon Aug 18, 8:21 am)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Pavel Machek, (Mon Aug 18, 9:30 am)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Mon Aug 18, 8:03 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Thu Aug 14, 9:31 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Eric Paris, (Wed Aug 13, 2:57 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Thu Aug 14, 5:46 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Thu Aug 14, 9:37 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Arjan van de Ven, (Thu Aug 14, 9:46 am)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Arjan van de Ven, (Wed Aug 13, 5:39 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Eric Paris, (Thu Aug 14, 10:12 am)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Helge Hafting, (Fri Aug 15, 6:07 am)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Fri Aug 15, 6:44 am)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Peter Zijlstra, (Fri Aug 15, 6:37 am)

RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Press, Jonathan, (Fri Aug 15, 9:10 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Helge Hafting, (Mon Aug 18, 6:02 am)

RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Fri Aug 15, 12:25 pm)

RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Press, Jonathan, (Fri Aug 15, 12:30 pm)

RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Fri Aug 15, 1:33 pm)

RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Press, Jonathan, (Fri Aug 15, 1:40 pm)

RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Fri Aug 15, 1:47 pm)

RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Press, Jonathan, (Fri Aug 15, 2:17 pm)

RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Fri Aug 15, 4:08 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Fri Aug 15, 2:06 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Theodore Tso, (Fri Aug 15, 4:17 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Fri Aug 15, 4:05 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Fri Aug 15, 9:18 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Theodore Tso, (Fri Aug 15, 1:04 pm)

RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Press, Jonathan, (Fri Aug 15, 2:09 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Helge Hafting, (Mon Aug 18, 6:09 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Mon Aug 18, 6:25 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Peter Zijlstra, (Mon Aug 18, 6:14 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Mon Aug 18, 6:24 am)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Arjan van de Ven, (Thu Aug 14, 11:57 am)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Theodore Tso, (Wed Aug 13, 2:15 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Eric Paris, (Wed Aug 13, 3:02 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Theodore Tso, (Wed Aug 13, 3:29 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Thu Aug 14, 5:30 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Theodore Tso, (Thu Aug 14, 9:24 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Eric Paris, (Thu Aug 14, 9:48 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Theodore Tso, (Thu Aug 14, 11:50 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Pavel Machek, (Fri Aug 15, 10:37 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Eric Paris, (Thu Aug 14, 1:29 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Theodore Tso, (Thu Aug 14, 3:17 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Christoph Hellwig, (Thu Aug 14, 3:34 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Theodore Tso, (Thu Aug 14, 3:41 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Thu Aug 14, 9:44 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Theodore Tso, (Thu Aug 14, 10:04 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Alan Cox, (Fri Aug 15, 4:51 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Fri Aug 15, 12:48 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Arjan van de Ven, (Thu Aug 14, 11:41 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Fri Aug 15, 1:05 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Fri Aug 15, 1:36 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Johannes Weiner, (Fri Aug 15, 1:12 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Fri Aug 15, 1:28 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Christoph Hellwig, (Thu Aug 14, 4:20 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., J. Bruce Fields, (Thu Aug 14, 5:21 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Theodore Tso, (Thu Aug 14, 7:34 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., J. Bruce Fields, (Tue Aug 19, 5:43 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Eric Paris, (Thu Aug 14, 3:20 pm)

RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Press, Jonathan, (Thu Aug 14, 8:03 am)

RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Thu Aug 14, 8:27 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Pavel Machek, (Fri Aug 15, 10:31 am)

RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Press, Jonathan, (Wed Aug 13, 5:15 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Arjan van de Ven, (Wed Aug 13, 2:21 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Thu Aug 14, 5:18 am)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Greg KH, (Wed Aug 13, 12:57 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Alan Cox, (Wed Aug 13, 12:24 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Arnd Bergmann, (Thu Aug 14, 9:00 am)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Christoph Hellwig, (Wed Aug 13, 1:07 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Eric Paris, (Wed Aug 13, 12:47 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Alan Cox, (Wed Aug 13, 12:37 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Eric Paris, (Wed Aug 13, 1:00 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Alan Cox, (Wed Aug 13, 3:59 pm)

RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Press, Jonathan, (Wed Aug 13, 5:24 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Rik van Riel, (Wed Aug 13, 5:35 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Jan Harkes, (Fri Aug 15, 4:16 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Arjan van de Ven, (Fri Aug 15, 6:05 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Eric Paris, (Sun Aug 17, 7:19 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Alan Cox, (Mon Aug 18, 11:33 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Rik van Riel, (Mon Aug 18, 12:43 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Arjan van de Ven, (Sun Aug 17, 7:26 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., David Collier-Brown, (Sun Aug 17, 5:11 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Alan Cox, (Wed Aug 13, 5:23 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Eric Paris, (Thu Aug 14, 11:25 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Alan Cox, (Wed Aug 13, 5:13 pm)

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