Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta.

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To: Arjan van de Ven <arjan@...>
Cc: Eric Paris <eparis@...>, <linux-kernel@...>, <malware-list@...>, <andi@...>, <riel@...>, <greg@...>, <tytso@...>, <viro@...>, <alan@...>, <peterz@...>, <hch@...>
Date: Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 9:31 pm

On Wed, 13 Aug 2008, Arjan van de Ven wrote:


the kernel should not kick off a scan, instead it should check to see 
an open/read should not kick off a scan, instead it should check to see if 
the scan generation tag(s) are current should be enough (remember, you may 
have more then one type of scanner running on the system)


definantly not the kernel. the intent of this is to keep linux from being 
a storage repository for malware used by other systems. there is no need 
to penalize linux-only apps by making them wait for a scan to take place. 
If it lives in glibc there should be a way for linux apps that know that 
they will not be exporting files to other systems to tell the library not 
to do a scan.

for example, why should a log analysis program looking at apache logs be 
forced to wait while multiple 'virii scanners' go through several gigs of 
logs before it can start looking at them.

you are going to need some way to bypass the checks anyway so that you can 
avoid the recursive case of the scanners triggering scans on files that 
they open.

by keeping the scans all in userspace it also simplifies things greatly. 
All the kernel should do is to maintain the tags with the file (posix 
attributes??) and have a mechanism to clear them when the file is dirtied.


not a problem, in fact multiple agents scanning in parallel is a good 
thing, it lets them all see the data with one pass through the disk.

they will all need to set different tags anyway (the fact that agent1 
blessed the data doesn't mean that it's safe if agent2 hasn't done so)


this is not part of the threat model.

David Lang
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Messages in current thread:
TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Eric Paris, (Wed Aug 13, 12:36 pm)
Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., 7v5w7go9ub0o, (Wed Aug 13, 8:14 pm)
Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., 7v5w7go9ub0o, (Wed Aug 13, 10:25 pm)
Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Andi Kleen, (Wed Aug 13, 2:17 pm)
Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Mihai , (Wed Aug 13, 8:18 pm)
RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Press, Jonathan, (Thu Aug 14, 7:58 am)
Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Eric Paris, (Wed Aug 13, 2:40 pm)
Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., H. Peter Anvin, (Wed Aug 13, 2:21 pm)
Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Arjan van de Ven, (Wed Aug 13, 2:24 pm)
Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Arjan van de Ven, (Wed Aug 13, 1:39 pm)
Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Pavel Machek, (Fri Aug 15, 12:06 pm)
Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Pavel Machek, (Mon Aug 18, 9:30 am)
Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Thu Aug 14, 9:31 pm)
Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Eric Paris, (Wed Aug 13, 2:57 pm)
Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Arjan van de Ven, (Thu Aug 14, 9:46 am)
Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Arjan van de Ven, (Wed Aug 13, 5:39 pm)
Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Eric Paris, (Thu Aug 14, 10:12 am)
Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Helge Hafting, (Fri Aug 15, 6:07 am)
Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Peter Zijlstra, (Fri Aug 15, 6:37 am)
RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Press, Jonathan, (Fri Aug 15, 9:10 am)
Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Helge Hafting, (Mon Aug 18, 6:02 am)
RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Press, Jonathan, (Fri Aug 15, 12:30 pm)
RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Press, Jonathan, (Fri Aug 15, 1:40 pm)
RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Press, Jonathan, (Fri Aug 15, 2:17 pm)
Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Theodore Tso, (Fri Aug 15, 4:17 pm)
Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Theodore Tso, (Fri Aug 15, 1:04 pm)
RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Press, Jonathan, (Fri Aug 15, 2:09 pm)
Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Helge Hafting, (Mon Aug 18, 6:09 am)
Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Peter Zijlstra, (Mon Aug 18, 6:14 am)
Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Arjan van de Ven, (Thu Aug 14, 11:57 am)
Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Theodore Tso, (Wed Aug 13, 2:15 pm)
Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Eric Paris, (Wed Aug 13, 3:02 pm)
Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Theodore Tso, (Wed Aug 13, 3:29 pm)
Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Theodore Tso, (Thu Aug 14, 9:24 am)
Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Theodore Tso, (Thu Aug 14, 11:50 am)
Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Pavel Machek, (Fri Aug 15, 10:37 am)
Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Theodore Tso, (Thu Aug 14, 3:17 pm)
Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Christoph Hellwig, (Thu Aug 14, 3:34 pm)
Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Theodore Tso, (Thu Aug 14, 3:41 pm)
Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Theodore Tso, (Thu Aug 14, 10:04 pm)
Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Arjan van de Ven, (Thu Aug 14, 11:41 pm)
Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Johannes Weiner, (Fri Aug 15, 1:12 am)
Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Christoph Hellwig, (Thu Aug 14, 4:20 pm)
Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., J. Bruce Fields, (Thu Aug 14, 5:21 pm)
Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Theodore Tso, (Thu Aug 14, 7:34 pm)
Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., J. Bruce Fields, (Tue Aug 19, 5:43 pm)
RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Press, Jonathan, (Thu Aug 14, 8:03 am)
Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Pavel Machek, (Fri Aug 15, 10:31 am)
RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Press, Jonathan, (Wed Aug 13, 5:15 pm)
Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Arjan van de Ven, (Wed Aug 13, 2:21 pm)
Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Greg KH, (Wed Aug 13, 12:57 pm)
Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Alan Cox, (Wed Aug 13, 12:24 pm)
Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Arnd Bergmann, (Thu Aug 14, 9:00 am)
Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Christoph Hellwig, (Wed Aug 13, 1:07 pm)
Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Eric Paris, (Wed Aug 13, 12:47 pm)
Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Alan Cox, (Wed Aug 13, 12:37 pm)
Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Eric Paris, (Wed Aug 13, 1:00 pm)
Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Alan Cox, (Wed Aug 13, 3:59 pm)
RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Press, Jonathan, (Wed Aug 13, 5:24 pm)
Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Rik van Riel, (Wed Aug 13, 5:35 pm)
Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Arjan van de Ven, (Fri Aug 15, 6:05 pm)
Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Rik van Riel, (Mon Aug 18, 12:43 pm)
Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Arjan van de Ven, (Sun Aug 17, 7:26 pm)
Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., David Collier-Brown, (Sun Aug 17, 5:11 pm)
Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Eric Paris, (Thu Aug 14, 11:25 pm)