Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta.

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To: Theodore Tso <tytso@...>

Cc: <tvrtko.ursulin@...>, <alan@...>, <andi@...>, Arjan van de Ven <arjan@...>, <hch@...>, <linux-kernel@...>, <malware-list@...>, <malware-list-bounces@...>, <peterz@...>, <viro@...>

Subject: Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta.

Date: Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 9:48 am

On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 09:24 -0400, Theodore Tso wrote:
quoted text> On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 10:30:56AM +0100, tvrtko.ursulin@sophos.com wrote:
> > The thing is the idea never was for clean-dirty "database" to be 
> > persistent but to have the same lifetime as the inode (in memory one). And 
> > once the cache/database gets invalidated re-scanning happens on-demand so 
> > the 5TB problem does not exist. Concerns about multiple clients where 
> > every has a different versioning scheme are also not relevant with the 
> > proposed versioning scheme (see my reply to Arjan).
> 
> So in essence, what I hear you saying is that all AV products want to
> work in a mode where the moment the inode falls out of the inode
> cache, and we lose the "clean" bit, when the inode is brought back
> into the cache, it will be scanned again.  That is, the "clean" bit is
> never persistent, and never needs to be stored in memory.

There needs to be a way to say that an inode in cache needs to be
rescanned.  3 states this flag can be.  Clean, Dirty, Infected.  The
current talpa solution involves a global monotomically increasing
counter every time you change virus defs or make some "interesting"
change.  If global == inode flag we are clean.  If global == negative
inode flag we are infected.  if global > inode flag we are dirty and
need a scan.

quoted text> That seems fair; if it turns out there is an AV product that wants to
> optimize this a bit further, as long as we provide a persistent inode
> version/generation number, they can always do their own persistent
> database in userspace.

exporting i_version might be useful for better userspace caching,
although I've yet to see any reasonable description of how a userspace
database can map between data on disk and what they have in userspace.
How can a userspace process, given 2 file descriptors know they are
actually the same thing on disk?

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Messages in current thread:

TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Eric Paris, (Wed Aug 13, 12:36 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., 7v5w7go9ub0o, (Wed Aug 13, 8:14 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., 7v5w7go9ub0o, (Wed Aug 13, 10:25 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Andi Kleen, (Wed Aug 13, 2:17 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Mihai , (Wed Aug 13, 8:18 pm)

RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Press, Jonathan, (Thu Aug 14, 7:58 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Mihai , (Thu Aug 14, 8:34 am)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Eric Paris, (Wed Aug 13, 2:40 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., H. Peter Anvin, (Wed Aug 13, 2:21 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Arjan van de Ven, (Wed Aug 13, 2:24 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Arjan van de Ven, (Wed Aug 13, 1:39 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Pavel Machek, (Fri Aug 15, 12:06 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Mon Aug 18, 8:21 am)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Pavel Machek, (Mon Aug 18, 9:30 am)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Mon Aug 18, 8:03 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Thu Aug 14, 9:31 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Eric Paris, (Wed Aug 13, 2:57 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Thu Aug 14, 5:46 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Thu Aug 14, 9:37 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Arjan van de Ven, (Thu Aug 14, 9:46 am)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Arjan van de Ven, (Wed Aug 13, 5:39 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Eric Paris, (Thu Aug 14, 10:12 am)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Helge Hafting, (Fri Aug 15, 6:07 am)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Fri Aug 15, 6:44 am)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Peter Zijlstra, (Fri Aug 15, 6:37 am)

RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Press, Jonathan, (Fri Aug 15, 9:10 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Helge Hafting, (Mon Aug 18, 6:02 am)

RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Fri Aug 15, 12:25 pm)

RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Press, Jonathan, (Fri Aug 15, 12:30 pm)

RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Fri Aug 15, 1:33 pm)

RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Press, Jonathan, (Fri Aug 15, 1:40 pm)

RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Fri Aug 15, 1:47 pm)

RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Press, Jonathan, (Fri Aug 15, 2:17 pm)

RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Fri Aug 15, 4:08 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Fri Aug 15, 2:06 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Theodore Tso, (Fri Aug 15, 4:17 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Fri Aug 15, 4:05 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Fri Aug 15, 9:18 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Theodore Tso, (Fri Aug 15, 1:04 pm)

RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Press, Jonathan, (Fri Aug 15, 2:09 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Helge Hafting, (Mon Aug 18, 6:09 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Mon Aug 18, 6:25 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Peter Zijlstra, (Mon Aug 18, 6:14 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Mon Aug 18, 6:24 am)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Arjan van de Ven, (Thu Aug 14, 11:57 am)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Theodore Tso, (Wed Aug 13, 2:15 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Eric Paris, (Wed Aug 13, 3:02 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Theodore Tso, (Wed Aug 13, 3:29 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Thu Aug 14, 5:30 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Theodore Tso, (Thu Aug 14, 9:24 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Eric Paris, (Thu Aug 14, 9:48 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Theodore Tso, (Thu Aug 14, 11:50 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Pavel Machek, (Fri Aug 15, 10:37 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Eric Paris, (Thu Aug 14, 1:29 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Theodore Tso, (Thu Aug 14, 3:17 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Christoph Hellwig, (Thu Aug 14, 3:34 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Theodore Tso, (Thu Aug 14, 3:41 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Thu Aug 14, 9:44 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Theodore Tso, (Thu Aug 14, 10:04 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Alan Cox, (Fri Aug 15, 4:51 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Fri Aug 15, 12:48 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Arjan van de Ven, (Thu Aug 14, 11:41 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Fri Aug 15, 1:05 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Fri Aug 15, 1:36 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Johannes Weiner, (Fri Aug 15, 1:12 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Fri Aug 15, 1:28 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Christoph Hellwig, (Thu Aug 14, 4:20 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., J. Bruce Fields, (Thu Aug 14, 5:21 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Theodore Tso, (Thu Aug 14, 7:34 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., J. Bruce Fields, (Tue Aug 19, 5:43 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Eric Paris, (Thu Aug 14, 3:20 pm)

RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Press, Jonathan, (Thu Aug 14, 8:03 am)

RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Thu Aug 14, 8:27 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Pavel Machek, (Fri Aug 15, 10:31 am)

RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Press, Jonathan, (Wed Aug 13, 5:15 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Arjan van de Ven, (Wed Aug 13, 2:21 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., , (Thu Aug 14, 5:18 am)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Greg KH, (Wed Aug 13, 12:57 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Alan Cox, (Wed Aug 13, 12:24 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Arnd Bergmann, (Thu Aug 14, 9:00 am)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Christoph Hellwig, (Wed Aug 13, 1:07 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Eric Paris, (Wed Aug 13, 12:47 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Alan Cox, (Wed Aug 13, 12:37 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Eric Paris, (Wed Aug 13, 1:00 pm)

Re: TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Alan Cox, (Wed Aug 13, 3:59 pm)

RE: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Press, Jonathan, (Wed Aug 13, 5:24 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Rik van Riel, (Wed Aug 13, 5:35 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Jan Harkes, (Fri Aug 15, 4:16 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Arjan van de Ven, (Fri Aug 15, 6:05 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Eric Paris, (Sun Aug 17, 7:19 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Alan Cox, (Mon Aug 18, 11:33 am)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Rik van Riel, (Mon Aug 18, 12:43 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Arjan van de Ven, (Sun Aug 17, 7:26 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., David Collier-Brown, (Sun Aug 17, 5:11 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Alan Cox, (Wed Aug 13, 5:23 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Eric Paris, (Thu Aug 14, 11:25 pm)

Re: [malware-list] TALPA - a threat model? well sorta., Alan Cox, (Wed Aug 13, 5:13 pm)

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