Re: The state of linux security

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Next thread: [PATCH] - Fix kernel_physical_mapping_init() for large x86 systems by Jack Steiner on Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 9:11 am. (2 messages)
From: Cheradenine Zakalwe
Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 9:05 am

Right, for a start, if I was a professor at university I'd much rather
some "smart" students crashed 100 boxes a day for a year than one
owned several servers.  In any case, it seems absurd that anybody
looking for security holes to either subvert or crash systems would be
deterred by the lack of security commit messages.  They already know
what they are looking for.  On the other hand, there has to be some
metrics available for normal people to make an informed decision about
the relative security of linux and the likely hood that smart people
are able to cause a bit of mindless vandalism or get up to much worse.

Your hand waving and obfuscation simply do not wash.  The bugs being
talked about are not just any bugs.  They have their own commercial
value because they can allow the complete subversion of your systems.
This (for most people I'd guess) is far more dangerous than simply
having their computers crash.  Also, I'd bet that many security bugs
aren't triggerable under any normal workload.  If my machines have
been running for 2 months why bother bringing them down in order to
bugfix something that doesn't seem to affect them anyway?

This business of passing the buck onto vendors is also absurd.  If
security is not built into your development mindset and models from
the start you are being utterly naive and complacent.  I commend the
stable team for fixing and backporting what they can, but I need to
know what I've been exposed to and for how long.  From the looks of
what the paxteam has been saying, it seems linux security is pretty
bad and has been getting worse.  This must be in no small part to you
putting your head in the sand, sticking your fingers in your ears and
going "lalalalala".

Obfuscating the risk people are exposed to means you have no real
accountability and thus no incentive to not put so many security bugs
there in the first place.  If other developers or users don't know how
bad things are how can they make informed decisions about ...
From: Randy Dunlap
Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 9:26 am

On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 16:05:07 +0000 Cheradenine Zakalwe wrote:

[deletia]

Please submit patch(es) to Documentation/stable_kernel_rules.txt
or some other (even new) file in Documentation/ .

Thanks.

---
~Randy
Linux Plumbers Conference, 17-19 September 2008, Portland, Oregon USA
http://linuxplumbersconf.org/
--

From: david
Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 9:38 am

how can you tell for sure if a bug has security implications or not?

the argument can be made that just about any bug can be a security bug

frequently the security implications of a bug are not known at the time 
it's fixed, but are discovered later. how do you expect to have this in 
the announcements?

if you only upgrade when there is a 'security bug' announcement you will 
miss a lot of important upgrades.

as Linus stated, there's nothing preventing anyone who thinks that he's 
not doing an appropriate job from doing the research on the security 
implications of everything and doing their own announcements or just 
maintaining their own tree.

David Lang
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From: David Newall
Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 9:38 am

There is a project which is seriously concerned about security as well
as open source, and it's name is OpenBSD.  Not a popular observation to
make in some parts, I know, but true none-the-less.
--

From: Valdis.Kletnieks
Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 1:08 pm

You just convinced me that you've never *really* thought about it the way
a security professional would.

The key point you overlooked is that if it's only triggered under an abnormal
workload, the attacker can usually *arrange* said workload.  Need at least
10K processes for something to trigger, and there's usually only 400 on the
box? No problem, just fork-bomb yourself 9,600 processes and then run the
exploit.  You can only avoid the reboot for a bugfix if you can *prove*
that the setup condition(s) cannot possibly happen on the system unless
the security has already been breached (for example, "we don't need to
reboot to fix this because there is a system-wide process limit of 1,250
per user, there are only 7 userids on the system, and you need to already
be root to reset the limit").


If I wrote up a 'DoS Advisory' for every time I manage to find another way
to oops or panic a -mm kernel, I'd probably have a a very large pile of
advisories.  However, the fact that I managed to oops or panic their software
has almost always been incentive enough for the maintainers to fix it, there's

It should however be noted that a number of people who take security seriously
think the paxteam is totally out to lunch with some of their ideas.  The last
time I looked at their "security patch" (admittedly, that was back around
2.6.17 or so), a large chunk of it was pretty much cargo-cult security that
addressed specific gotcha's that have in the past been used (like symlink races
in /tmp), rather than address the *actual* security issue (for instance,
"compilers shouldn't overwrite system config files") in a comprehensive manner.
A big chunk of the rest was their version of execshield, which required
cutting the available address space in half (a big issue for 32-bit archs).
The telling point is that they didn't see this as being possibly a problem for

You've apparently overlooked the fact that although there are probably still
a lot of security bugs in the kernel, an attacker is ...
From: Stefan Roas
Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 1:29 pm

I don't know what to make of this paragraph. I'm currently employed at a
University and there are quite a few linux boxes (even available to
students, some of them probably "smart") and I don't have any issues with
crashes or servers getting owned. The only upgrade decsision I have on

Because uptime isn't everything. Bugs can (and will) happen in any complex
system. Furthermore not every bug obviously has a security implication. If
you discover one, just reply to the release announcement and tell the rest

Why is it absurd that the vendors take care of the bugs in their specific
kernels. Most vendors deliver kernels with additional patches anyway, so
it's their duty to fix the bugs. I've never experienced this
"finger-in-the-ears" attitude here. And I don't think security isn't
important here. But the system is very complex and security issues in a
bug aren't easy to spot. I've been running linux since 1996 and every
successful attack I've seen on any of my systems so far was either caused
by weak passwords or badly written php webapps (I haven't been root-owned

There is nobody here deliberatly obfuscating bugs. It's just not always

If you want more stability stay with your vendor kernel. On my personal
system I always run the latest stable release. That's my personal decision
and the response times of the stable team are almost unbeatable. I sure
won't win any uptime contest that way, but there isn't something in the
world I'm less interested in. I can easily live with the 1-2 minutes

Have you ever seen what happens with patches on this list? There's almost
never a patch among them that slips through not reviewed or commented by
anyone. I seriously doubt anybody would be willing to spend money to slip
an exploitable hole into the kernel. The risk of getting detected early is
way to high. And any developer involved in such a plot is probalby out of
business forever. He will never again contribute to any open source
project and he most likely won't ever find an employer ...
From: Alan Cox
Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 10:57 am

Distributions assign CVE numbers to kernel vulnerabilities. As
distributions like Fedora ship current kernels they provide a pretty

Wrong question. Thats a very naïve basis for thinking about security. Why
should end users care whether a flaw was added deliberately or by
mistake. What matters is that the flaw is identified. A passive attacker
observing a flaw and using it is at least as dangerous if not more so
than an active attacker.

Alan
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From: Helge Hafting
Date: Sunday, July 20, 2008 - 4:01 am

Bear in mind that top linux development does not happen in a
corporation. So "commercial value" is a complete non-issue.
Corporations like RedHat and SUSE care about this though. If
you want guarantees and documented security - that is where you

Sure. And kernel developers don't want their machines

Not absurd if you think about it. Most linux developers don't develop
linux for money - they don't have customers - so customers have *no*
hold over them at all. Vendors are the ones who have to care, so they
do that. 

Still, linux security is good for a different reason - there is prestige
in making linux good, and so developers strive for that. Also,
security-concerned vendors are always welcome to bring security

Each developer has the mindset "what I want from linux". That's
what you get from such a loosely organized effort. But many actually

This is much harder to do in linux, than in a closed-source system. If I
bribe a key microsoft developer to put in a backdoor, then nobody notice
until I exploit it - for the source code is a trade secret.

If i bribe a linux developer to put in a backdoor, then this developer's
patch will likely be rejected by the upstream maintainer or Linus, for
containing a griveous scurity flaw. And if it isn't caught immediately,
then it will still be open for all to see.

Also, bribing a key linux developer is probably much harder, since
they work for pride instead of money. Someone getting caught
would likely never be trusted in open-source development again,

Current attitudes has brought linux where it is today - it works very
well.

Helge Hafting

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Previous thread: No standard touchscreen driver for Samwell Ruggedbook Tablet PC 800. Which to use? by Igor Zhbanov on Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 8:49 am. (1 message)

Next thread: [PATCH] - Fix kernel_physical_mapping_init() for large x86 systems by Jack Steiner on Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 9:11 am. (2 messages)