Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes

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To: Theodore Tso <tytso@...>, Eric Sandeen <sandeen@...>, Andrew Morton <akpm@...>, <linux-ext4@...>, <linux-kernel@...>, <linux-fsdevel@...>
Date: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 - 11:13 am

Theodore Tso wrote:

I haven't read the code and don't use MacOS myself.

From its fcntl() man page:

    Note that while fsync() will flush all data from the host to the
    drive (i.e. the "permanent storage device"), the drive itself may
    not physically write the data to the platters for quite some time
    and it may be written in an out-of-order sequence.

    Specifically, if the drive loses power or the OS crashes, the
    application may find that only some or none of their data was
    written. The disk drive may also re-order the data so that later
    writes may be present while earlier writes are not.

    This is not a theoretical edge case. This scenario is easily
    reproduced with real world workloads and drive power failures.

    For applications that require tighter guarantess about the
    integrity of their data, MacOS X provides the F_FULLFSYNC
    fcntl. The F_FULLFSYNC fcntl asks the drive to flush all buffered
    data to permanent storage.  Applications such as databases that
    require a strict ordering of writes should use F_FULLFSYNC to
    ensure their data is written in the order they expect. Please see
    fcntl(2) for more detail.

Some notable things:

   1. Para 2 says "if the drive loses power __or the OS crashes__".
      Does this mean some drives will abandon cached writes when reset
      despite retaining power?

   2. Para 3 to be re-read by the skeptical.

   3. Para 4 perpetuates the confused idea that write ordering is what
      it's all about, for things like databases.  In fact, sometimes
      ordering barriers are all that's needed and flush is unnecessary
      performance baggage.  But sometimes an fsync() which only
      guarantees ordering is insufficient.  An "ideal"
      database-friendly block layer would offer both.

I doubt if common unix mail transports use F_FULLSYNC on Darwin
instead of fsync(), before reporting a mail received safely, but they
probably should.  I recall SQLite does use it (unless I'm confusing
it with some other database).

-- Jamie
--
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Messages in current thread:
[PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Eric Sandeen, (Fri May 16, 3:02 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Andrew Morton, (Fri May 16, 4:05 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Eric Sandeen, (Thu May 29, 9:36 am)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Pavel Machek, (Mon May 19, 5:04 am)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Andi Kleen, (Sun May 18, 3:54 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Chris Mason, (Mon May 19, 9:26 am)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Jamie Lokier, (Tue May 20, 11:36 am)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Chris Mason, (Tue May 20, 12:02 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Jamie Lokier, (Tue May 20, 12:27 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Chris Mason, (Tue May 20, 1:08 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Jamie Lokier, (Tue May 20, 6:26 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Theodore Tso, (Mon May 19, 10:46 am)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Ric Wheeler, (Fri May 23, 2:33 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Jamie Lokier, (Fri May 16, 6:30 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Eric Sandeen, (Fri May 16, 4:53 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Jamie Lokier, (Fri May 16, 6:03 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Theodore Tso, (Sun May 18, 8:28 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Jamie Lokier, (Tue May 20, 11:13 am)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Greg Smith, (Wed May 21, 4:25 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Eric Sandeen, (Fri May 16, 6:21 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Andi Kleen, (Sun May 18, 4:03 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Theodore Tso, (Sun May 18, 8:43 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Eric Sandeen, (Sun May 18, 10:29 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Jamie Lokier, (Tue May 20, 7:35 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Andrew Morton, (Mon May 19, 12:11 am)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Chris Mason, (Mon May 19, 1:16 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Daniel Phillips, (Wed May 21, 6:30 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Jamie Lokier, (Tue May 20, 10:58 am)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Chris Mason, (Mon May 19, 2:39 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Pavel Machek, (Wed May 21, 7:22 am)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Andrew Morton, (Wed May 21, 2:03 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Jamie Lokier, (Wed May 21, 3:54 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Theodore Tso, (Wed May 21, 2:29 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Jamie Lokier, (Wed May 21, 3:36 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Chris Mason, (Wed May 21, 3:40 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Andrew Morton, (Wed May 21, 2:49 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Jamie Lokier, (Wed May 21, 3:42 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Eric Sandeen, (Wed May 21, 2:15 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Jamie Lokier, (Wed May 21, 3:43 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Theodore Tso, (Wed May 21, 8:32 am)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Jens Axboe, (Tue May 20, 4:25 am)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Chris Mason, (Tue May 20, 8:17 am)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Jan Kara, (Mon May 19, 6:39 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Chris Mason, (Mon May 19, 8:29 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Timothy Shimmin, (Mon May 19, 11:29 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Chris Mason, (Tue May 20, 8:04 am)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Jamie Lokier, (Fri May 16, 6:53 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Theodore Tso, (Fri May 16, 8:20 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Andrew Morton, (Fri May 16, 8:35 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Chris Mason, (Sat May 17, 8:48 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Jamie Lokier, (Tue May 20, 7:44 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Theodore Tso, (Sat May 17, 9:36 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Ric Wheeler, (Sun May 18, 10:49 am)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Jamie Lokier, (Tue May 20, 7:48 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Jamie Lokier, (Tue May 20, 10:42 am)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Theodore Tso, (Sat May 17, 9:43 am)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Theodore Tso, (Sat May 17, 4:44 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Jamie Lokier, (Tue May 20, 10:45 am)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Andreas Dilger, (Sat May 17, 1:59 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Andrew Morton, (Fri May 16, 4:58 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Jamie Lokier, (Fri May 16, 5:45 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Eric Sandeen, (Fri May 16, 6:03 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/4] (RESEND) ext3[34] barrier changes, Jamie Lokier, (Fri May 16, 6:09 pm)
[PATCH 4/4] ext4: call blkdev_issue_flush on fsync, Eric Sandeen, (Fri May 16, 3:09 pm)
Re: [PATCH 4/4] ext4: call blkdev_issue_flush on fsync, Theodore Tso, (Mon May 19, 10:34 pm)
Re: [PATCH 4/4] ext4: call blkdev_issue_flush on fsync, Jamie Lokier, (Tue May 20, 11:43 am)
Re: [PATCH 4/4] ext4: call blkdev_issue_flush on fsync, Jamie Lokier, (Tue May 20, 6:02 pm)
Re: [PATCH 4/4] ext4: call blkdev_issue_flush on fsync, Eric Sandeen, (Tue May 20, 11:52 am)
[PATCH 3/4] ext4: enable barriers by default, Eric Sandeen, (Fri May 16, 3:08 pm)
[PATCH 2/4] ext3: call blkdev_issue_flush on fsync, Eric Sandeen, (Fri May 16, 3:07 pm)
Re: [PATCH 2/4] ext3: call blkdev_issue_flush on fsync, Jamie Lokier, (Fri May 16, 6:15 pm)
[PATCH 1/4] ext3: enable barriers by default, Eric Sandeen, (Fri May 16, 3:05 pm)
Re: [PATCH 1/4] ext3: enable barriers by default, Pavel Machek, (Mon May 19, 4:58 am)