about bisections (was: Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors)

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To: David Miller <davem@...>
Cc: <lkml@...>, <jesper.juhl@...>, <tilman@...>, <yoshfuji@...>, <jeff@...>, <rjw@...>, <linux-kernel@...>, <netdev@...>, <corbet@...>, Linus Torvalds <torvalds@...>
Date: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 - 5:53 pm

* David Miller wrote:

> And it's a win-win situation. The incentive for a capable user to do

this argument is a fallacy because it assumes that the Linux kernel is a
closed ecosystem and i'm really surprised to see you advance this
economic argument.

i remind you: Linux is very much not a closed ecosystem.

... and hence, your "free market economy of bugs" that in essence
strongly suggests users to do bisections when they find bugs in
networking, works exactly the way you did not intend it to work: it
pushes users towards other OSs.

It pushes them towards Solaris, FreeBSD, MacOS and even Windows. That
happens because the barrier to getting bugs fixed is _increased_ - and
users might find it easier to participate in the ecosystem of other OSs
- instead of having to compete with "each other" for the attention of
the head honcho (you).

You have a unique position within Linux: through a decade of hard and
excellent work you have built a quasi-monopoly to all things networking
commits: if you say about something that it should go into networking it
will, if you say that it should stay out, it wont go in.

So it is fundamentally _you_ who determines the feature/fix ratio in the
networking code, and it is _you_ who determines the amount of bugs users
have to find! There's no real competition for your position - it would
take years for anyone to replace you. (and it would be a shame and a
loss - you do your job so well)

No doubt about it: bisection is very nice, it's one of the best things
that happened to Linux debuggability in the past 2 years, i use it
heavily myself, but please do _not_ require it from testers and users.
They dont have nice 32-way Niagara's to build a kernel in 1 minute. They
dont have nice virtualization to do easy bisection. Take bisection as an
additional gift/tool but dont make it a semi-required aspect of your
subsystem. Pretty please.

And _PLEASE_ realize that the networking bug-count has been created
primarily by _you_, because it is you who throttles the amount of new
code in new kernel releases. If you cannot cope with the resulting
bug-count via your network of users - it might be perhaps because you
let too much new stuff in to begin with?

Ingo
--

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Messages in current thread:
[Bug #10391] 2.6.25-rc7/8: Another resume regression, Rafael J. Wysocki, (Tue Apr 8, 7:02 pm)
2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, Mark Lord, (Wed Apr 9, 12:56 am)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, Mark Lord, (Wed Apr 9, 9:37 am)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, Jeff Garzik, (Wed Apr 9, 12:46 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, Mark Lord, (Wed Apr 9, 1:16 pm)
re: Regression: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, Mark Lord, (Wed Apr 9, 1:27 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, YOSHIFUJI Hideaki / , (Wed Apr 9, 1:30 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, Mark Lord, (Wed Apr 9, 3:05 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, Jeff Garzik, (Wed Apr 9, 3:08 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, David Miller, (Wed Apr 9, 6:29 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, Mark Lord, (Wed Apr 9, 8:02 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, Ilpo Järvinen, (Thu Apr 10, 4:46 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, Mark Lord, (Thu Apr 10, 5:05 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, Ilpo Järvinen, (Thu Apr 10, 5:43 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, David Miller, (Wed Apr 9, 9:22 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, Tilman Schmidt, (Thu Apr 10, 11:20 am)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, Jesper Juhl, (Thu Apr 10, 6:09 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, David Miller, (Thu Apr 10, 6:46 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, Mark Lord, (Thu Apr 10, 8:16 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, David Miller, (Thu Apr 10, 8:26 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, Mark Lord, (Thu Apr 10, 8:29 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, YOSHIFUJI Hideaki / , (Thu Apr 10, 10:59 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, Pavel Emelyanov, (Fri Apr 11, 3:50 am)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, David Miller, (Thu Apr 10, 8:24 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, Tilman Schmidt, (Thu Apr 10, 8:56 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, David Miller, (Thu Apr 10, 9:08 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, Mark Lord, (Thu Apr 10, 8:27 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, David Miller, (Thu Apr 10, 8:39 pm)
about bisections (was: Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors), Ingo Molnar, (Tue Apr 15, 5:53 pm)
Re: about bisections, David Miller, (Tue Apr 15, 6:30 pm)
Re: about bisections, Ingo Molnar, (Tue Apr 15, 6:48 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, Mark Lord, (Thu Apr 10, 9:23 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, , (Fri Apr 11, 3:58 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, Tilman Schmidt, (Fri Apr 11, 6:27 pm)
Reporting bugs and bisection (was: Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP trans..., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Sun Apr 13, 2:40 pm)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Andi Kleen, (Mon Apr 14, 5:58 am)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Willy Tarreau, (Mon Apr 14, 6:00 am)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Andi Kleen, (Mon Apr 14, 6:16 am)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Andi Kleen, (Mon Apr 14, 6:29 am)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, David Miller, (Sun Apr 13, 4:35 pm)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection (was: Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP t..., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Sun Apr 13, 4:33 pm)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Stephen Clark, (Sun Apr 13, 6:24 pm)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Andi Kleen, (Mon Apr 14, 5:26 am)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, , (Sun Apr 13, 7:51 pm)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Willy Tarreau, (Mon Apr 14, 12:39 am)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Al Viro, (Mon Apr 14, 1:39 am)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Andrew Morton, (Mon Apr 14, 2:24 am)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Rene Herman, (Mon Apr 14, 3:13 pm)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Andrew Morton, (Mon Apr 14, 4:38 pm)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Rene Herman, (Mon Apr 14, 6:18 pm)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Al Viro, (Mon Apr 14, 3:23 am)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, James Morris, (Mon Apr 14, 11:54 am)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, David Newall, (Tue Apr 15, 5:33 am)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Sverre Rabbelier, (Wed Apr 16, 8:15 am)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Jesper Juhl, (Wed Apr 16, 5:17 pm)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, David Newall, (Thu Apr 17, 1:04 pm)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Rafael J. Wysocki, (Thu Apr 17, 3:09 pm)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Ray Lee, (Thu Apr 17, 3:35 pm)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Al Viro, (Thu Apr 17, 4:16 pm)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Ray Lee, (Thu Apr 17, 4:38 pm)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Al Viro, (Thu Apr 17, 4:53 pm)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Ray Lee, (Thu Apr 17, 5:01 pm)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Sverre Rabbelier, (Thu Apr 17, 3:57 pm)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Adrian Bunk, (Wed Apr 16, 9:26 am)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Willy Tarreau, (Wed Apr 16, 4:04 pm)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Sverre Rabbelier, (Wed Apr 16, 3:39 pm)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Adrian Bunk, (Wed Apr 16, 4:16 pm)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Adrian Bunk, (Wed Apr 16, 4:53 pm)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Sverre Rabbelier, (Wed Apr 16, 5:05 pm)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Adrian Bunk, (Wed Apr 16, 5:25 pm)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Andrew Morton, (Wed Apr 16, 3:02 pm)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Alexey Dobriyan, (Wed Apr 16, 3:58 pm)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Arjan van de Ven, (Wed Apr 16, 4:01 pm)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Adrian Bunk, (Wed Apr 16, 3:55 pm)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, J. Bruce Fields, (Thu Apr 17, 9:50 am)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Adrian Bunk, (Thu Apr 17, 11:26 am)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Sverre Rabbelier, (Wed Apr 16, 3:43 pm)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Michael Kerrisk, (Tue Apr 15, 5:54 am)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, David Newall, (Tue Apr 15, 10:04 am)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Rafael J. Wysocki, (Tue Apr 15, 4:51 pm)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, David Newall, (Tue Apr 15, 10:34 pm)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Willy Tarreau, (Wed Apr 16, 12:29 am)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Rafael J. Wysocki, (Wed Apr 16, 8:13 am)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, , (Tue Apr 15, 11:53 pm)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Stephen Clark, (Wed Apr 16, 8:41 am)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, David Newall, (Wed Apr 16, 5:06 am)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Andi Kleen, (Wed Apr 16, 7:02 am)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, David Miller, (Mon Apr 14, 6:01 pm)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Andrew Morton, (Mon Apr 14, 7:05 pm)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Willy Tarreau, (Tue Apr 15, 12:55 am)
Work WAS(Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, jamal, (Tue Apr 15, 9:18 am)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Andrew Morton, (Mon Apr 14, 4:04 am)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Arjan van de Ven, (Mon Apr 14, 10:43 am)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Andrew Morton, (Mon Apr 14, 1:51 pm)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Ilpo Järvinen, (Mon Apr 14, 3:30 pm)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Arjan van de Ven, (Mon Apr 14, 2:24 pm)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Adrian Bunk, (Mon Apr 14, 8:08 am)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, David Miller, (Mon Apr 14, 4:30 am)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Andrew Morton, (Mon Apr 14, 6:15 am)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, David Miller, (Mon Apr 14, 6:41 am)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Roman Shaposhnik, (Mon Apr 14, 1:35 pm)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Andi Kleen, (Mon Apr 14, 5:46 am)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Bill Fink, (Tue Apr 15, 1:25 am)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Christoph Hellwig, (Mon Apr 14, 5:06 am)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Al Viro, (Mon Apr 14, 3:43 am)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, David Miller, (Mon Apr 14, 2:39 am)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, David Miller, (Mon Apr 14, 2:43 am)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Jakub Narebski, (Sun Apr 13, 8:36 pm)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, Rafael J. Wysocki, (Sun Apr 13, 6:41 pm)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection, David Miller, (Sun Apr 13, 3:47 pm)
Re: Reporting bugs and bisection (was: Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP t..., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Sun Apr 13, 3:27 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, Ilpo Järvinen, (Fri Apr 11, 2:40 am)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, Mark Lord, (Fri Apr 11, 9:19 am)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, Evgeniy Polyakov, (Fri Apr 11, 10:35 am)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, Tilman Schmidt, (Fri Apr 11, 6:16 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, David Miller, (Fri Apr 11, 6:26 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, Evgeniy Polyakov, (Fri Apr 11, 6:25 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, Tilman Schmidt, (Fri Apr 11, 7:23 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, Ilpo Järvinen, (Sat Apr 12, 3:06 am)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, Evgeniy Polyakov, (Sat Apr 12, 1:37 am)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, David Miller, (Fri Apr 11, 6:27 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, Mark Lord, (Fri Apr 11, 10:59 am)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, , (Fri Apr 11, 3:58 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, Evgeniy Polyakov, (Fri Apr 11, 11:18 am)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, David Miller, (Fri Apr 11, 2:07 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, Willy Tarreau, (Sat Apr 12, 4:44 am)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, David Miller, (Sat Apr 12, 5:49 am)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, Rafael J. Wysocki, (Sun Apr 13, 2:15 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, Sergio Luis, (Sun Apr 13, 2:51 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, Rafael J. Wysocki, (Sun Apr 13, 3:24 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, Evgeniy Polyakov, (Fri Apr 11, 5:29 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, Charlie Brady, (Thu Apr 10, 6:52 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, Jesper Juhl, (Thu Apr 10, 7:02 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, David Miller, (Thu Apr 10, 7:05 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, vincent-perrier, (Thu Apr 10, 7:10 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, Jesper Juhl, (Thu Apr 10, 7:39 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, David Miller, (Thu Apr 10, 7:14 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, vincent-perrier, (Thu Apr 10, 7:32 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, David Miller, (Thu Apr 10, 7:41 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, vincent-perrier, (Thu Apr 10, 7:51 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, Mark Lord, (Thu Apr 10, 11:07 am)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, Harvey Harrison, (Wed Apr 9, 8:37 pm)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, Gerhard Mack, (Thu Apr 10, 9:52 am)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, Mark Lord, (Thu Apr 10, 11:15 am)
Re: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, Gerhard Mack, (Thu Apr 10, 11:58 am)
Regression: 2.6.25-rc8: FTP transfer errors, Mark Lord, (Wed Apr 9, 10:06 am)