On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 01:33:57PM -0300, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote:
quoted text
> On Mon, 14 Apr 2008, Dmitry Torokhov wrote:
> > On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 11:36:03AM -0300, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote:
> > > On Mon, 14 Apr 2008, Dmitry Torokhov wrote:
> > > > What exactly breaks with user_claim? I think the general issue is that
> > > 
> > > The same thing that happens if userspace is in charge and doesn't
> > > cooperate or if rfkill-input is not loaded:  the rfkill driver state is
> > > never updated (remember, it is about the radio controller, not the input
> > > device).
> > > 
> > 
> > And it should not - setting user_claim means userspace controls the
> > transmitter state. If userspace decides to ignore KEY_* event and not
> 
> Nuh-uh.  Here's the root of the bug.  The rfkill controller knowing
> whether its state is on or off for real has NOTHING to do with the user
> telling it to change state.
> 

Nuh-uh. Nothing changed the transmitter sate yet. We just got a
request from user to do something.

quoted text
> Something changed the controller's state (the hardware, or the
> firmware), and didn't do it using the rfkill class.  That's a fact.

And this is a bug. How come hardware state changes without kernel not
beign aware? The only case is hard-wired switch. Here I agree that if
such switches are exported via rfkill to userspace the driver should
be able to set rfkill state to match its own. In all other cases, when
you can programmatically control RF state you shoudl defer the actual
switch until user[space] tells you to do so. I guess firmware could
work like a hard-wired switch, turnign radio off when battery goes
extremely low, so yes, I agree that allowing drivers to update their
state directly is required.

quoted text
> The
> rfkill class needs to know of that change through an rfkill->state
> update, or it misbehaves (because some stuff takes decisions depending
> on the contents of rfkill->state, AND that state is exposed to userspace
> which is allowed to also take decisions based on it).  That's another
> fact.
> 
> And none of it has to do with input events, or what the user wants done.
> During this entire process, the kernel did not take ANY active instances
> on what should happen to the radio controller.  It didn't change the
> radio controller state.  It is just making sure the kernel doesn't think
> it is ON when it is OFF, for a particular, specific, radio rfkill
> controller.
> 
> I propose that we broadcast (through normal kernel notifier chains) that
> the state has been changed, and if something is trying to enforce that
> no radio rfkill controllers deviate from the global rfkill state for
> that radio rfkill controller state, IT should tell the radios to go back
> to the state it wants.  But IT is not the rfkill class, nor any input
> devices or rfkill devices.  Maybe it is userspace, or rfkill-input, or
> another platform-specific policy module.
>

I agree. Here you are talking about hardwired-like scenarios where
kernel did not get a chance to interfere with the RF toggle. Still, if
there was a button involved it needs to be broadcasted so that the
rest of RF transmitters can be adjusted according to the used
policy.

quoted text
> > turn the radio on or off - that is fine. rfkill-input simply provides
> > default kernel policy for reacting to KEY_WLAN, KEY_BLUETOOTH, etc.
> 
> So far so good, but it must not be used for something else entirely
> (namely: keeping rfkill->state consistent to the real hardware state).
> That's what I am talking about...
> 

Here I agree.

quoted text
> > If there are drivers sense button presses and alter their actual
> > transmitter state immediately but then rely on rfkill-input to update
> > their sysfs rfkill attributes then such drivers should be fixed.
> 
> That's the point, yes.  Currently *all* drivers have to do this :) and
> that's why I did not add thinkpad-acpi rfkill support until I had enough
> time to tack on rfkill itself to bring it up to speed with the extra
> requirements stuff like thinkpad-acpi and b43 have.

No, I dont believe all drivers have to do this. Ivo will correct me if
Im wrong but I believe he worked with drivers that dont necessarily
have the switch hard wired.

quoted text
> 
> > > > rfkill was originally not supposed to be used with switches that can't
> > > > be programmatically controlled. If we have a switch that mechanically
> > > 
> > > The input layer does not provide a way for userspace to get access to
> > > the current state of any switches easily (or at all?).  It just exports
> > > events reporting these states sometimes.
> > 
> > You can use EVIOCGSW to get state of switches. I'd expect applications
> > to use it when they open devices first time and then rely on event
> > delivery to monitor changes in state of input devices.
> 
> Good to know.  But the usual consumers of those are shell scripts, do we
> have a swiss-army-knife-for-the-input-layer utility a shell script can
> use to do a EVIOCGSW call?  Or to wait for an event?
> 
> If we don't, but we provide one to be the companion of lsinput,
> input-events and input-kbd, then I agree we can forego the sysfs
> attribute.
> 
> But DO be warned that userspace developers will see that rfkill exports
> a state attribute for the radio rfkill controllers, and will look for
> something equally easy to use for the input devices.

Should I add attribute for every key on a keyboard just because some
userspace developers what to use shell scripts everywhere? key_a,
key_b, key_c and so on? No.

quoted text
>  There is a big
> pontential for confusion and misuse of interfaces there, when you recall
> that it will be COMMON to have the same module (driver) provide both a
> rfkill controller through the rfkill class, and an input device.
> 

As soon as people will realize that button and RF transmitter are
different objects serving different purposes it all goes away. The
very same module also registers network device, why rfkill is so
different.

quoted text
> > > We could fix it in the input subsystem, instead.  How difficult (and
> > > welcome a change?) would it be for the input device infrastructure to
> > > provide pollable (for good measure!) "state" attributes for every EV_SW
> > > event an input device registers in evbits+swbits ?
> > > 
> > 
> > Given the above I don't see the need.
> 
> So, we can get the required information using an IOCTL.  That means
> rfkill class support for read-only devices is no longar mandatory.  It
> is still not clear to me it is not *desired*, though.
> 
> The reasons are:
>   1. Need to have an easy way to get that information for shell scripts,
>      and IOCTLs are not (AFAIK).  This can be fixed by adding a shell-
>      script helper to input-utils.
> 
>   2. It might be better to have all information directly related to
>      rfkill behaviour (i.e. both rfkill controller state and rfkill
>      input device state) in the same class, and present it in the same
>      way to userspace.

No, we need to keep RF transmitetrs and buttons separate. I can assign
KEY_WLAN to one of the media keys on my laptop (that I dont use
otherwise). Does it make sense to "move" my keyboard to rfkill
vicinity? I dont think so. Its just a button.

quoted text
> 
> Anyone has an opinion about the above?  Provided we can do it without
> major complexity (we can, AFAIK, since I did get quite close to it with
> the first patchset and the code in there is definately NOT complex), I
> think both points could be addressed at the same time, and userspace
> can get the information it wants in whichever way it is easier for the
> application.
> 
> > > If the input subsystem exports that information, we can define that
> > > slave read-only radio controllers must NOT be registered as rfkill
> > > devices, and drop support for read-only rfkill devices, as all master
> > > rfkill devices (which are input devices by definition) would get their
> > > state exported to userspace through the input layer.
> > > 
> > > However, that DOES mean userspace would need to look for rfkill state in
> > > two places.  Input layer, to get the current state of the rfkill input
> > > devices, and rfkill class to get the current state of the rfkill
> > > radio controllers.
> > >
> > 
> > I think you outlined the problem in your other mail quite well. We
> > keep confusing button state with the transmitter state. Only for
> > buttons that are hardwired to transmitters the states are the same,
> > for programmatically controlled RF transmitters state may be
> > different. So if you need to see state of transmitters you should look
> > in /sys/class/rfkill and for input devices - hook into input devices.
> 
> I am not so sure about that last sentence.  See above.  And I really
> need to have a very clear and fixed picture of which way to go about
> this before I start respinning the rfkill patches :)
> 
> > > Let's decide this NOW, then.  But if we decide to not do it in rfkill,
> > > you will have to add attributes to every input device which has
> > > registered itself as a source of EV_SW events.
> > 
> > No, since they may not be tied directly to any RF transmitter.
> 
> It is valuable information for userspace.  I export the same information
> available through SW_TABLET_MODE for example, as a thinkpad-acpi
> specific attribute.  Doing EVIOCGSW is not a very friendly interface for
> userspace shell scripts right now.
> 
> So it *would* be useful.  Whether it is the right way to go about it
> (instead of adding a new utility to input-utils to do the EVIOCGSW for
> shell scripts and other script languages that are IOCTL-challenged) is
> something else.
> 
> If you really don't want that exported over sysfs as well, and EVIOCGSW
> is the only way to get that information, I feel the immediate need for
> an input-ioctl utility for userspace shell scripting.
> 
> And there is the all important question about whether I should still
> export that information in thinkpad-acpi over pollable attributes (which
> are *really* easy to use) or not.  Other driver writers might want to
> think about it as well.

If we export switches then we need to export leds. And keys. And
axis... It all adds up very quickly and wastes kernel memory. Just
write ioctl utility for script-users if such is needed and be done
with it.

quoted text
> 
> > > I better make it clear that I have NO idea how to properly implement the
> > > required changes in the input layer if we go that way so if it is left
> > > for me to do that work, it won't be ready anytime soon and it might be
> > > supbar, so I'd appreciate lots of help in that case.
> > 
> > Well, let's see.. Do we have any issues with transmitters that can be
> > controlled programmatically? Or is it the hardwired ones that give us
> > trouble at the moment? I think that exporting all of them in rfkill is
> 
> Both, I think.  Any rfkill controller which is not in complete,
> exclusive control by the kernel, is currently a problem.  That means
> stuff the firmware can change, and it also means any stuff directly tied
> to a button or switch that the user can change.
> 
> The only things we are handling well right now is pure keys/buttons, and
> rfkill radio controllers that are in full control by their kernel driver
> (i.e. those with NO sideway control paths that are out of the control of
> the rfkill device).
> 
> > a good idea, even though originally I thought we would not need to do
> > that. Therefore we do need to allow hardwided drivers updating their
> > rfkill state directly. The only problem I see is that we need to monitor
> > this closely, so non-hardwired cases won't try to use this mechanism.
> 
> Well, I do propose that we export any, and *every* radio controller
> state change through kernel notifier chains (and to userspace using
> uevents).  Those notifications should include the rfkill type (and type
> class if we add that), new switch state, and any other relevant
> information (e.g. that the switch is a master switch -- those usually
> need input events generated, whether the code that produced the
> notification will also handle issuing an input event for it or not
> (duplicate suppresion), etc).
> 

Notfiers are a good idea for RF transmitter state changes. Not so for
key/button notifiers because these can be ussued by regular PS/2 or
USB keyboards and other devices that have no idea about rfkill and
dont want to know.

quoted text
> We can monitor all rfkill radio controllers from userspace or
> rfkill-input through those chains.

-- 
Dmitry
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