Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1 -- It does not matter who's code gets merged!

!MAILaRCHIVE_VOTE_RePLACE
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To: Arjan van de Ven <arjan@...>
Cc: Hua Zhong <hzhong@...>, Carlo Florendo <subscribermail@...>, Roman Zippel <zippel@...>, Linus Torvalds <torvalds@...>, jos poortvliet <jos@...>, Michael Chang <thenewme91@...>, Kasper Sandberg <lkml@...>, Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@...>
Date: Wednesday, August 1, 2007 - 4:14 am

On 8/1/07, Arjan van de Ven <arjan@infradead.org> wrote:

And, from a standpoint of ONGOING, long-term innovation: what matters
is that brilliant, new ideas get rewarded one way or another. Because
if you don't, the people with the 'different' ideas walk away, you end
up with only those who 'fit' the culture, and there goes innovation.

That's why I tried to get involved in this discussion. It doesn't
matter who's code gets merged. But it does matter that people get
scared away. It took the kernel folks a few years, but they managed to
get someone kicked out who's not 'in-crowd', who clearly has a
different view, and who has the intent and motivation to write and
maintain code.

And that's bad.

I've quoted this before: Reward Brilliant Failures, Punish Mediocre Successes.

Of course that's 'overdone', but it conveys a point: If you focus too
much on exploiting current code, instead of fundamentally exploring
new ideas you go down in the long run. There has to be a balance. And
in some area's of the kernel, there seems to be a good balance - new
ideas come in, code is being re-factored. But in scheduling and VM, I
wonder if there's enough exploration...

I hear 'We don't do politics' a lot in the kernel community.

Well, what are politics? Managing the way code gets into the kernel?
That's important for sure, right? And what about thinking about the
hacker culture? Nobody would object to preserving and securing that.
But those are not just technical matters. Yet they require thought. If
the kernel culture doesn't work, the code won't work. There is a
delicate balance, and a key part of what Linus has been doing is
preserving it. I think he must not ignore that there is always room
for improvement, and moments like these (where a big 'fight' is going
on, and there is a clear sense of urgency about the matter) are the
perfect times for a good discussion, and possible change.

Use it.


Love,

Jos



* Disclaimer:
- I'm no kernel hacker
- actually I help at the KDE project in the area of marketing...
- yet, i have followed Con and his stuff for years
- and I do research in the area of promoting innovation in
organisations at a Dutch research institute, which is why I so
annoyingly think I might have something to say.
-
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Messages in current thread:
Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sun Jul 22, 5:04 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Ronni Nielsen, (Sat Jul 28, 10:52 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sat Jul 28, 1:30 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Kasper Sandberg, (Fri Jul 27, 10:04 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Ingo Molnar, (Sun Jul 29, 11:04 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Kasper Sandberg, (Mon Jul 30, 12:13 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, George Sescher, (Sun Jul 29, 7:04 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Ingo Molnar, (Mon Jul 30, 2:44 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, George Sescher, (Mon Jul 30, 3:06 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Ingo Molnar, (Mon Jul 30, 3:55 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, George Sescher, (Mon Jul 30, 5:26 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Ingo Molnar, (Mon Jul 30, 6:26 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sun Jul 29, 7:18 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Bill Huey, (Tue Jul 31, 6:05 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Tue Jul 31, 11:44 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Ingo Molnar, (Tue Jul 31, 10:04 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Matthew Hawkins, (Mon Jul 30, 1:12 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, George Sescher, (Sun Jul 29, 7:38 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sun Jul 29, 7:58 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Fri Jul 27, 10:35 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Jory A. Pratt, (Sat Jul 28, 5:07 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Michael Chang, (Sat Jul 28, 9:18 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sat Jul 28, 1:25 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, jos poortvliet, (Sat Jul 28, 2:03 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sat Jul 28, 2:28 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, jos poortvliet, (Sat Jul 28, 3:28 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sat Jul 28, 4:31 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Roman Zippel, (Wed Aug 1, 12:17 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Carlo Florendo, (Wed Aug 1, 1:46 am)
RE: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Hua Zhong, (Wed Aug 1, 2:16 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Alan Cox, (Wed Aug 1, 8:31 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Carlo Florendo, (Wed Aug 1, 3:09 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1 -- It does not matter who's co..., , (Wed Aug 1, 4:14 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Con Kolivas, (Sat Jul 28, 8:03 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Charles philip Chan, (Sat Jul 28, 9:23 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Bill Huey, (Sat Jul 28, 4:07 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Diego Calleja, (Sat Jul 28, 5:06 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Daniel Phillips, (Tue Aug 7, 2:55 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Alan Cox, (Tue Aug 7, 11:33 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Bill Huey, (Sat Jul 28, 5:32 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sat Jul 28, 6:18 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Bill Huey, (Sat Jul 28, 9:00 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Diego Calleja, (Sun Jul 29, 10:31 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Mike Galbraith, (Sun Jul 29, 4:25 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Bill Huey, (Sun Jul 29, 5:48 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Mike Galbraith, (Mon Jul 30, 1:03 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Martin Steigerwald, (Sun Jul 29, 2:31 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Martin Steigerwald, (Sat Jul 28, 6:05 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Dirk Schoebel, (Sat Jul 28, 7:06 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Kasper Sandberg, (Sat Jul 28, 5:44 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sat Jul 28, 1:50 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Jan Engelhardt, (Sat Jul 28, 3:13 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sat Jul 28, 3:34 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Jan Engelhardt, (Wed Aug 1, 5:21 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sat Jul 28, 5:33 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Jan Engelhardt, (Sat Jul 28, 5:55 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sat Jul 28, 6:22 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Kasper Sandberg, (Sat Jul 28, 2:07 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Matthew Hawkins, (Sat Jul 28, 3:36 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Martin Steigerwald, (Sat Jul 28, 6:40 am)
Reporting bugs (was Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1), Stefan Richter, (Sat Jul 28, 12:10 pm)
Re: Reporting bugs (was Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1), Michal Piotrowski, (Sat Jul 28, 12:21 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Grzegorz Kulewski, (Sat Jul 28, 3:09 am)
SD still better than CFS for 3d , Kasper Sandberg, (Fri Jul 27, 7:43 am)
Re: SD still better than CFS for 3d ?(was Re: 2.6.23-rc1), Kasper Sandberg, (Mon Jul 30, 7:46 pm)
Re: SD still better than CFS for 3d ?(was Re: 2.6.23-rc1), Peter Zijlstra, (Tue Jul 31, 2:31 am)
Re: SD still better than CFS for 3d ?(was Re: 2.6.23-rc1), J. Bruce Fields, (Thu Aug 2, 9:03 am)
Re: SD still better than CFS for 3d ?(was Re: 2.6.23-rc1), Trond Myklebust, (Thu Aug 2, 9:39 am)
Re: SD still better than CFS for 3d ?(was Re: 2.6.23-rc1), Kasper Sandberg, (Wed Aug 1, 7:43 pm)
Re: SD still better than CFS for 3d ?(was Re: 2.6.23-rc1), Kasper Sandberg, (Wed Aug 8, 10:38 am)
2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Alexey Dobriyan, (Mon Jul 23, 2:38 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Alexey Dobriyan, (Mon Jul 23, 3:01 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Andrew Morton, (Mon Jul 23, 4:24 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Mike Galbraith, (Tue Jul 24, 6:01 am)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Andrew Morton, (Tue Jul 24, 12:28 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Linus Torvalds, (Tue Jul 24, 2:25 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Mike Galbraith, (Wed Jul 25, 1:09 am)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Alexey Dobriyan, (Tue Jul 24, 4:05 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Cyrill Gorcunov, (Wed Jul 25, 1:44 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Mike Galbraith, (Tue Jul 24, 6:37 am)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Alexey Dobriyan, (Mon Jul 23, 4:40 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Alexey Dobriyan, (Mon Jul 23, 5:01 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Andrew Morton, (Mon Jul 23, 5:11 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Alexey Dobriyan, (Mon Jul 23, 6:04 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Andrew Morton, (Mon Jul 23, 6:27 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Jens Axboe, (Tue Jul 24, 4:17 am)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Jens Axboe, (Tue Jul 24, 4:22 am)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Dan Williams, (Tue Jul 24, 9:55 am)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Andrew Morton, (Tue Jul 24, 4:34 am)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Dan Williams, (Tue Jul 24, 10:00 am)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Alexey Dobriyan, (Tue Jul 24, 1:20 am)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Linus Torvalds, (Mon Jul 23, 5:28 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Adrian Bunk, (Tue Jul 24, 1:59 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Linus Torvalds, (Tue Jul 24, 2:14 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Andrew Morton, (Tue Jul 24, 2:28 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Linus Torvalds, (Tue Jul 24, 3:15 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Adrian Bunk, (Tue Jul 24, 3:40 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Linus Torvalds, (Tue Jul 24, 3:48 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Adrian Bunk, (Thu Jul 26, 2:07 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Linus Torvalds, (Thu Jul 26, 2:19 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Andi Kleen, (Tue Jul 24, 4:27 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Linus Torvalds, (Tue Jul 24, 3:45 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Sam Ravnborg, (Mon Jul 23, 5:37 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Gabriel C, (Mon Jul 23, 12:43 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Ismail , (Mon Jul 23, 12:57 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Alessandro Suardi, (Mon Jul 23, 4:44 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Len Brown, (Tue Jul 24, 10:49 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, xen fix, Ingo Molnar, (Mon Jul 23, 11:52 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1: ACPI-related oops on x86_64, Mel Gorman, (Mon Jul 23, 5:50 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1: ACPI-related oops on x86_64, Len Brown, (Mon Jul 23, 1:15 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1: ACPI-related oops on x86_64, Mel Gorman, (Tue Jul 24, 6:37 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Gabriel C, (Sun Jul 22, 10:48 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Gabriel C, (Sun Jul 22, 9:20 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Paul Mundt, (Sun Jul 22, 9:23 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Greg KH, (Mon Jul 23, 12:11 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Gabriel C, (Sun Jul 22, 9:27 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Paul Mundt, (Sun Jul 22, 9:40 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Alistair John Strachan, (Sun Jul 22, 7:33 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Roland McGrath, (Sun Jul 22, 7:51 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Adrian Bunk, (Sun Jul 22, 8:07 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Roland McGrath, (Sun Jul 22, 8:31 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Adrian Bunk, (Sun Jul 22, 9:43 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Andre Noll, (Sun Jul 22, 6:10 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Andi Kleen, (Sun Jul 22, 6:22 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Andre Noll, (Sun Jul 22, 7:23 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Andi Kleen, (Sun Jul 22, 7:31 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Jakub Jelinek, (Mon Jul 23, 2:07 am)