Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1

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To: George Sescher <gesacs@...>
Cc: Kasper Sandberg <lkml@...>, Linus Torvalds <torvalds@...>, Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@...>, CK Mailinglist <ck@...>
Date: Monday, July 30, 2007 - 3:55 am

* George Sescher <gesacs@gmail.com> wrote:


What you should realize is that _all_ future code that goes into Linux 
is 'forced' to be developed 'out of mainline' today. So what you seem to 
characterise via negative terms like 'forced', and what seems to make 
you 'chuckle' (not meant as a compliment either i gather ;), is in fact 
the _very engine_ that keeps Linux running.

And there's no exception: Linus himself creates an "out of mainline" 
fork of Linux every time he develops something new. "Forks" are _the_ 
main mechanism to develop Linux, and it always was. External code is the 
"reality check" of mainline code. It is the 'external pool of genes' 
that is _competing_ against in-tree code.

Sometimes the decision to include new bits of code is easy and positive 
(so it is a "fork" only very briefly and nobody actually ever has enough 
time to think of that code as a "fork"), sometimes it takes some time 
and the decision is positive, sometimes the decision is immediately 
negative and the code is rejected, sometimes it's negative after some 
time. Often code goes through several cycles of rejection before it is 
merged. The larger the code, the more rejections it will see - and that 
is natural. Sometimes, very rarely, out of the hundreds of thousands of 
external changes that went into Linux so far, code seems to be staying 
'in limbo' forever - such as the kernel debugger. So _every_ color of 
the spectrum is present: immediate integration, immediate rejection, 
long-term integration, long-term rejection, ping-pong of rejections 
until integration, and even decisions that seem to take a near 
'eternity' in very rare cases.

If a biologist took a look at these gene pool dynamic parameters alone, 
without knowing a squat about kernel technology, the likely conclusion 
would be that this is "a healthy, diverse gene pool that is being 
affected by many many external factors. A true expert at survival, that 
critter!" ;-)

For example, i'm at the moment maintaining in excess of 400 patches "out 
of mainline", many of which will never see the "daylight of upstream". 
Many of those are longer-term "reality checks" that could replace 
in-tree code in the future or are in the process of replacing in-tree 
code as we speak. Some are "reality checks" that _failed_ to replace 
in-tree code but i'm still maintaining them because i find them useful. 
If the kernel code that these patches modify happens to be modularized 
then it is sometimes helpful to my out-of-tree patches (and sometimes 
it's a pain) - but in any case, i dont "require" nor "suggest" upstream 
maintainers to modularize, just to make my "out of tree" life easier. 
Are they still useful to Linux in general? I sure hope so.

It was always like this in Linux: modularization is mainly dictated by 
the needs of the in-tree code - and that's very much on purpose, and 
always was, to increase the advantages of including good external genes 
in the kernel gene pool.

	Ingo
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Messages in current thread:
Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sun Jul 22, 5:04 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Ronni Nielsen, (Sat Jul 28, 10:52 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sat Jul 28, 1:30 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Kasper Sandberg, (Fri Jul 27, 10:04 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Ingo Molnar, (Sun Jul 29, 11:04 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Kasper Sandberg, (Mon Jul 30, 12:13 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, George Sescher, (Sun Jul 29, 7:04 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Ingo Molnar, (Mon Jul 30, 2:44 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, George Sescher, (Mon Jul 30, 3:06 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Ingo Molnar, (Mon Jul 30, 3:55 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, George Sescher, (Mon Jul 30, 5:26 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Ingo Molnar, (Mon Jul 30, 6:26 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sun Jul 29, 7:18 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Bill Huey, (Tue Jul 31, 6:05 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Tue Jul 31, 11:44 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Ingo Molnar, (Tue Jul 31, 10:04 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Matthew Hawkins, (Mon Jul 30, 1:12 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, George Sescher, (Sun Jul 29, 7:38 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sun Jul 29, 7:58 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Fri Jul 27, 10:35 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Jory A. Pratt, (Sat Jul 28, 5:07 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Michael Chang, (Sat Jul 28, 9:18 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sat Jul 28, 1:25 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, jos poortvliet, (Sat Jul 28, 2:03 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sat Jul 28, 2:28 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, jos poortvliet, (Sat Jul 28, 3:28 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sat Jul 28, 4:31 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Roman Zippel, (Wed Aug 1, 12:17 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Carlo Florendo, (Wed Aug 1, 1:46 am)
RE: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Hua Zhong, (Wed Aug 1, 2:16 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Alan Cox, (Wed Aug 1, 8:31 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Carlo Florendo, (Wed Aug 1, 3:09 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Con Kolivas, (Sat Jul 28, 8:03 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Charles philip Chan, (Sat Jul 28, 9:23 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Bill Huey, (Sat Jul 28, 4:07 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Diego Calleja, (Sat Jul 28, 5:06 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Daniel Phillips, (Tue Aug 7, 2:55 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Alan Cox, (Tue Aug 7, 11:33 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Bill Huey, (Sat Jul 28, 5:32 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sat Jul 28, 6:18 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Bill Huey, (Sat Jul 28, 9:00 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Diego Calleja, (Sun Jul 29, 10:31 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Mike Galbraith, (Sun Jul 29, 4:25 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Bill Huey, (Sun Jul 29, 5:48 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Mike Galbraith, (Mon Jul 30, 1:03 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Martin Steigerwald, (Sun Jul 29, 2:31 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Martin Steigerwald, (Sat Jul 28, 6:05 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Dirk Schoebel, (Sat Jul 28, 7:06 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Kasper Sandberg, (Sat Jul 28, 5:44 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sat Jul 28, 1:50 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Jan Engelhardt, (Sat Jul 28, 3:13 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sat Jul 28, 3:34 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Jan Engelhardt, (Wed Aug 1, 5:21 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sat Jul 28, 5:33 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Jan Engelhardt, (Sat Jul 28, 5:55 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sat Jul 28, 6:22 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Kasper Sandberg, (Sat Jul 28, 2:07 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Matthew Hawkins, (Sat Jul 28, 3:36 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Martin Steigerwald, (Sat Jul 28, 6:40 am)
Reporting bugs (was Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1), Stefan Richter, (Sat Jul 28, 12:10 pm)
Re: Reporting bugs (was Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1), Michal Piotrowski, (Sat Jul 28, 12:21 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Grzegorz Kulewski, (Sat Jul 28, 3:09 am)
SD still better than CFS for 3d , Kasper Sandberg, (Fri Jul 27, 7:43 am)
Re: SD still better than CFS for 3d ?(was Re: 2.6.23-rc1), Kasper Sandberg, (Mon Jul 30, 7:46 pm)
Re: SD still better than CFS for 3d ?(was Re: 2.6.23-rc1), Peter Zijlstra, (Tue Jul 31, 2:31 am)
Re: SD still better than CFS for 3d ?(was Re: 2.6.23-rc1), J. Bruce Fields, (Thu Aug 2, 9:03 am)
Re: SD still better than CFS for 3d ?(was Re: 2.6.23-rc1), Trond Myklebust, (Thu Aug 2, 9:39 am)
Re: SD still better than CFS for 3d ?(was Re: 2.6.23-rc1), Kasper Sandberg, (Wed Aug 1, 7:43 pm)
Re: SD still better than CFS for 3d ?(was Re: 2.6.23-rc1), Kasper Sandberg, (Wed Aug 8, 10:38 am)
2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Alexey Dobriyan, (Mon Jul 23, 2:38 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Alexey Dobriyan, (Mon Jul 23, 3:01 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Andrew Morton, (Mon Jul 23, 4:24 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Mike Galbraith, (Tue Jul 24, 6:01 am)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Andrew Morton, (Tue Jul 24, 12:28 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Linus Torvalds, (Tue Jul 24, 2:25 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Mike Galbraith, (Wed Jul 25, 1:09 am)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Alexey Dobriyan, (Tue Jul 24, 4:05 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Cyrill Gorcunov, (Wed Jul 25, 1:44 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Mike Galbraith, (Tue Jul 24, 6:37 am)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Alexey Dobriyan, (Mon Jul 23, 4:40 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Alexey Dobriyan, (Mon Jul 23, 5:01 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Andrew Morton, (Mon Jul 23, 5:11 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Alexey Dobriyan, (Mon Jul 23, 6:04 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Andrew Morton, (Mon Jul 23, 6:27 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Jens Axboe, (Tue Jul 24, 4:17 am)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Jens Axboe, (Tue Jul 24, 4:22 am)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Dan Williams, (Tue Jul 24, 9:55 am)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Andrew Morton, (Tue Jul 24, 4:34 am)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Dan Williams, (Tue Jul 24, 10:00 am)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Alexey Dobriyan, (Tue Jul 24, 1:20 am)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Linus Torvalds, (Mon Jul 23, 5:28 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Adrian Bunk, (Tue Jul 24, 1:59 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Linus Torvalds, (Tue Jul 24, 2:14 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Andrew Morton, (Tue Jul 24, 2:28 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Linus Torvalds, (Tue Jul 24, 3:15 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Adrian Bunk, (Tue Jul 24, 3:40 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Linus Torvalds, (Tue Jul 24, 3:48 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Adrian Bunk, (Thu Jul 26, 2:07 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Linus Torvalds, (Thu Jul 26, 2:19 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Andi Kleen, (Tue Jul 24, 4:27 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Linus Torvalds, (Tue Jul 24, 3:45 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Sam Ravnborg, (Mon Jul 23, 5:37 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Gabriel C, (Mon Jul 23, 12:43 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Ismail , (Mon Jul 23, 12:57 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Alessandro Suardi, (Mon Jul 23, 4:44 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Len Brown, (Tue Jul 24, 10:49 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, xen fix, Ingo Molnar, (Mon Jul 23, 11:52 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1: ACPI-related oops on x86_64, Mel Gorman, (Mon Jul 23, 5:50 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1: ACPI-related oops on x86_64, Len Brown, (Mon Jul 23, 1:15 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1: ACPI-related oops on x86_64, Mel Gorman, (Tue Jul 24, 6:37 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Gabriel C, (Sun Jul 22, 10:48 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Gabriel C, (Sun Jul 22, 9:20 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Paul Mundt, (Sun Jul 22, 9:23 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Greg KH, (Mon Jul 23, 12:11 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Gabriel C, (Sun Jul 22, 9:27 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Paul Mundt, (Sun Jul 22, 9:40 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Alistair John Strachan, (Sun Jul 22, 7:33 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Roland McGrath, (Sun Jul 22, 7:51 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Adrian Bunk, (Sun Jul 22, 8:07 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Roland McGrath, (Sun Jul 22, 8:31 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Adrian Bunk, (Sun Jul 22, 9:43 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Andre Noll, (Sun Jul 22, 6:10 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Andi Kleen, (Sun Jul 22, 6:22 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Andre Noll, (Sun Jul 22, 7:23 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Andi Kleen, (Sun Jul 22, 7:31 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Jakub Jelinek, (Mon Jul 23, 2:07 am)