Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1

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To: Bill Huey <billh@...>
Cc: Diego Calleja <diegocg@...>, jos poortvliet <jos@...>, <ck@...>, Michael Chang <thenewme91@...>, Kasper Sandberg <lkml@...>, Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@...>
Date: Saturday, July 28, 2007 - 6:18 pm

On Sat, 28 Jul 2007, Bill Huey wrote:

I don't think anything was suppressed here.

You seem to say that more modular code would have helped make for a nicer 
way to do schedulers, but if so, where were those patches to do that? 
Con's patches didn't do that either. They just replaced the code.

In fact, Ingo's patches _do_ add some modularity, and might make it easier 
to replace the scheduler. So it would seem that you would argue for CFS, 
not against it?


I don't think so.

I think you're barking up the totally wrong tree here.

I think that what happened was very simple: somebody showed that we did 
badly and had benchmarks to show for it, and that in turn resulted in a 
huge spurt of coding from the people involved.

The fact that you think this is "broken" is interesting. I can point to a 
very real example of where this also happened, and where I bet you don't 
think the process was "broken".

Do you remember the mindcraft study?

Exact same thing. Somebody came in, and showed that Linux did really badly 
on some benchmark, and that an alternate approach was much better.

What happened? A huge spurt of development in a pretty short timeframe, 
that totally _obliterated_ the mindcraft results. 

It could have happened independently, but the fact is, it didn't. These 
kinds of events where somebody shows (with real numbers and code) that 
things can be done better really *are* a good way to do development, and 
it's how development generally ends up happening. It's hugely 
motivational, both because competition is motivational in itself, but also 
because somebody shows that things can be done so much better opens 
peoples eyes to it.

And if you think the scheduler situation is different, why? Was it just 
because the mindcraft study compared against Windows NT, not another 
version of Linux patches?

The thing is, development is slow and gradual, but at the same time, it 
happens in spurts (btw, if you have ever studied evolution, you'll find 
the exact same thing: evolution is slow and gradual, but it also happens 
in sudden "spurts" where you have relatively much bigger changes happening 
because you get into a feedback loop).

Another comparison to evolution: most of the competitive pressure actually 
comes from the _same_ species, not from outside. It's not so much rabbits 
competing against foxes (although that happens too), quite a lot of it is 
rabbits competing against other rabbits!

			Linus
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Messages in current thread:
Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sun Jul 22, 5:04 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Ronni Nielsen, (Sat Jul 28, 10:52 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sat Jul 28, 1:30 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Kasper Sandberg, (Fri Jul 27, 10:04 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Ingo Molnar, (Sun Jul 29, 11:04 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Kasper Sandberg, (Mon Jul 30, 12:13 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, George Sescher, (Sun Jul 29, 7:04 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Ingo Molnar, (Mon Jul 30, 2:44 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, George Sescher, (Mon Jul 30, 3:06 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Ingo Molnar, (Mon Jul 30, 3:55 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, George Sescher, (Mon Jul 30, 5:26 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Ingo Molnar, (Mon Jul 30, 6:26 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sun Jul 29, 7:18 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Bill Huey, (Tue Jul 31, 6:05 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Tue Jul 31, 11:44 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Ingo Molnar, (Tue Jul 31, 10:04 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Matthew Hawkins, (Mon Jul 30, 1:12 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, George Sescher, (Sun Jul 29, 7:38 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sun Jul 29, 7:58 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Fri Jul 27, 10:35 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Jory A. Pratt, (Sat Jul 28, 5:07 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Michael Chang, (Sat Jul 28, 9:18 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sat Jul 28, 1:25 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, jos poortvliet, (Sat Jul 28, 2:03 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sat Jul 28, 2:28 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, jos poortvliet, (Sat Jul 28, 3:28 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sat Jul 28, 4:31 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Roman Zippel, (Wed Aug 1, 12:17 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Carlo Florendo, (Wed Aug 1, 1:46 am)
RE: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Hua Zhong, (Wed Aug 1, 2:16 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Alan Cox, (Wed Aug 1, 8:31 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Carlo Florendo, (Wed Aug 1, 3:09 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Con Kolivas, (Sat Jul 28, 8:03 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Charles philip Chan, (Sat Jul 28, 9:23 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Bill Huey, (Sat Jul 28, 4:07 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Diego Calleja, (Sat Jul 28, 5:06 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Daniel Phillips, (Tue Aug 7, 2:55 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Alan Cox, (Tue Aug 7, 11:33 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Bill Huey, (Sat Jul 28, 5:32 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sat Jul 28, 6:18 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Bill Huey, (Sat Jul 28, 9:00 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Diego Calleja, (Sun Jul 29, 10:31 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Mike Galbraith, (Sun Jul 29, 4:25 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Bill Huey, (Sun Jul 29, 5:48 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Mike Galbraith, (Mon Jul 30, 1:03 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Martin Steigerwald, (Sun Jul 29, 2:31 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Martin Steigerwald, (Sat Jul 28, 6:05 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Dirk Schoebel, (Sat Jul 28, 7:06 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Kasper Sandberg, (Sat Jul 28, 5:44 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sat Jul 28, 1:50 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Jan Engelhardt, (Sat Jul 28, 3:13 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sat Jul 28, 3:34 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Jan Engelhardt, (Wed Aug 1, 5:21 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sat Jul 28, 5:33 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Jan Engelhardt, (Sat Jul 28, 5:55 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sat Jul 28, 6:22 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Kasper Sandberg, (Sat Jul 28, 2:07 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Matthew Hawkins, (Sat Jul 28, 3:36 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Martin Steigerwald, (Sat Jul 28, 6:40 am)
Reporting bugs (was Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1), Stefan Richter, (Sat Jul 28, 12:10 pm)
Re: Reporting bugs (was Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1), Michal Piotrowski, (Sat Jul 28, 12:21 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Grzegorz Kulewski, (Sat Jul 28, 3:09 am)
SD still better than CFS for 3d , Kasper Sandberg, (Fri Jul 27, 7:43 am)
Re: SD still better than CFS for 3d ?(was Re: 2.6.23-rc1), Kasper Sandberg, (Mon Jul 30, 7:46 pm)
Re: SD still better than CFS for 3d ?(was Re: 2.6.23-rc1), Peter Zijlstra, (Tue Jul 31, 2:31 am)
Re: SD still better than CFS for 3d ?(was Re: 2.6.23-rc1), J. Bruce Fields, (Thu Aug 2, 9:03 am)
Re: SD still better than CFS for 3d ?(was Re: 2.6.23-rc1), Trond Myklebust, (Thu Aug 2, 9:39 am)
Re: SD still better than CFS for 3d ?(was Re: 2.6.23-rc1), Kasper Sandberg, (Wed Aug 1, 7:43 pm)
Re: SD still better than CFS for 3d ?(was Re: 2.6.23-rc1), Kasper Sandberg, (Wed Aug 8, 10:38 am)
2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Alexey Dobriyan, (Mon Jul 23, 2:38 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Alexey Dobriyan, (Mon Jul 23, 3:01 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Andrew Morton, (Mon Jul 23, 4:24 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Mike Galbraith, (Tue Jul 24, 6:01 am)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Andrew Morton, (Tue Jul 24, 12:28 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Linus Torvalds, (Tue Jul 24, 2:25 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Mike Galbraith, (Wed Jul 25, 1:09 am)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Alexey Dobriyan, (Tue Jul 24, 4:05 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Cyrill Gorcunov, (Wed Jul 25, 1:44 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Mike Galbraith, (Tue Jul 24, 6:37 am)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Alexey Dobriyan, (Mon Jul 23, 4:40 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Alexey Dobriyan, (Mon Jul 23, 5:01 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Andrew Morton, (Mon Jul 23, 5:11 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Alexey Dobriyan, (Mon Jul 23, 6:04 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Andrew Morton, (Mon Jul 23, 6:27 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Jens Axboe, (Tue Jul 24, 4:17 am)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Jens Axboe, (Tue Jul 24, 4:22 am)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Dan Williams, (Tue Jul 24, 9:55 am)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Andrew Morton, (Tue Jul 24, 4:34 am)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Dan Williams, (Tue Jul 24, 10:00 am)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Alexey Dobriyan, (Tue Jul 24, 1:20 am)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Linus Torvalds, (Mon Jul 23, 5:28 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Adrian Bunk, (Tue Jul 24, 1:59 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Linus Torvalds, (Tue Jul 24, 2:14 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Andrew Morton, (Tue Jul 24, 2:28 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Linus Torvalds, (Tue Jul 24, 3:15 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Adrian Bunk, (Tue Jul 24, 3:40 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Linus Torvalds, (Tue Jul 24, 3:48 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Adrian Bunk, (Thu Jul 26, 2:07 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Linus Torvalds, (Thu Jul 26, 2:19 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Andi Kleen, (Tue Jul 24, 4:27 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Linus Torvalds, (Tue Jul 24, 3:45 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Sam Ravnborg, (Mon Jul 23, 5:37 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Gabriel C, (Mon Jul 23, 12:43 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Ismail , (Mon Jul 23, 12:57 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Alessandro Suardi, (Mon Jul 23, 4:44 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Len Brown, (Tue Jul 24, 10:49 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, xen fix, Ingo Molnar, (Mon Jul 23, 11:52 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1: ACPI-related oops on x86_64, Mel Gorman, (Mon Jul 23, 5:50 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1: ACPI-related oops on x86_64, Len Brown, (Mon Jul 23, 1:15 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1: ACPI-related oops on x86_64, Mel Gorman, (Tue Jul 24, 6:37 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Gabriel C, (Sun Jul 22, 10:48 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Gabriel C, (Sun Jul 22, 9:20 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Paul Mundt, (Sun Jul 22, 9:23 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Greg KH, (Mon Jul 23, 12:11 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Gabriel C, (Sun Jul 22, 9:27 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Paul Mundt, (Sun Jul 22, 9:40 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Alistair John Strachan, (Sun Jul 22, 7:33 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Roland McGrath, (Sun Jul 22, 7:51 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Adrian Bunk, (Sun Jul 22, 8:07 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Roland McGrath, (Sun Jul 22, 8:31 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Adrian Bunk, (Sun Jul 22, 9:43 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Andre Noll, (Sun Jul 22, 6:10 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Andi Kleen, (Sun Jul 22, 6:22 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Andre Noll, (Sun Jul 22, 7:23 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Andi Kleen, (Sun Jul 22, 7:31 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Jakub Jelinek, (Mon Jul 23, 2:07 am)