Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1

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To: jos poortvliet <jos@...>
Cc: <ck@...>, Michael Chang <thenewme91@...>, Kasper Sandberg <lkml@...>, Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@...>
Date: Saturday, July 28, 2007 - 4:31 pm

On Sat, 28 Jul 2007, jos poortvliet wrote:

But I wanted to bring out more than what you make sound like "that's what 
happened, deal with it". I tried to explain _why_ the choices that were 
made were in fact made.

And it's a (I think) important thing for people to be aware of. The fact 
is, "personality" and "work with the other developers" is a big issue.

You cannot just go off and do your own thing in your private world, and 
then expect it to be accepted without any discussion or other people 
showing up and doing alternate things. That's _especially_ true in an area 
that has a respected and working maintainer.


We've had people go with a splash before. Quite frankly, the current 
scheduler situation looks very much like the CML2 situation. Anybody 
remember that? The developer there also got rejected, the improvement was 
made differently (and much more in line with existing practices and 
maintainership), and life went on. Eric Raymond, however, left with a 
splash.

It's not common, but it's not unheard of. Anybody who thinks that 
developers don't have huge egos probably haven't ever met a software 
engineer. And I suspect kernel people have bigger egos than most. No 
wonder there are clashes every once in a while - it's a wonder there 
aren't _more_ of them.


Well, one part of it is that the way to make changes in the kernel 
community is to do them incrementally.

Small and incremental improvements are much easier to merge. If you go off 
and rewrite a subsystem, you shouldn't expect it to get merged, at least 
not unless it can live side-by-side with the old one (the new firewire 
stack is an example of that, and most filesystems are this way too). And 
the closer to some central part you get, the harder that gets.

So the *bulk* of the kernel stuff can be handled either incrementally, or 
side-by-side, and as a result, you actually seldom see issues like this. 
The kernel is extremely modular, and a large reason for that is exactly to 
avoid couplings.

Some (very few) things cannot be done incrementally. That's why I bring 
up CML2 as a fairly good example of this having happened before. Some 
things require flag-days. But you should pretty much *assume* that if 
there is a flag-day, and if there is a maintainer, the maintainer has to 
be involved.

Does "maintainership" give infinite powers? No. I'll take patches that 
bypass maintainers, but there needs to be some reason for them (ie in some 
sense the maintainer needs to have done a bad job, or the patch just needs 
to be trivial enough - or it cuts across maintainership areas - that it's 
not even _worth_ going through all maintainers).

So maintainers aren't "everything". But they are important. You can't just 
ignore them and go do your own thing, and then expect it to be merged.

			Linus
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Messages in current thread:
Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sun Jul 22, 5:04 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Ronni Nielsen, (Sat Jul 28, 10:52 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sat Jul 28, 1:30 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Kasper Sandberg, (Fri Jul 27, 10:04 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Ingo Molnar, (Sun Jul 29, 11:04 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Kasper Sandberg, (Mon Jul 30, 12:13 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, George Sescher, (Sun Jul 29, 7:04 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Ingo Molnar, (Mon Jul 30, 2:44 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, George Sescher, (Mon Jul 30, 3:06 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Ingo Molnar, (Mon Jul 30, 3:55 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, George Sescher, (Mon Jul 30, 5:26 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Ingo Molnar, (Mon Jul 30, 6:26 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sun Jul 29, 7:18 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Bill Huey, (Tue Jul 31, 6:05 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Tue Jul 31, 11:44 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Ingo Molnar, (Tue Jul 31, 10:04 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Matthew Hawkins, (Mon Jul 30, 1:12 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, George Sescher, (Sun Jul 29, 7:38 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sun Jul 29, 7:58 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Fri Jul 27, 10:35 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Jory A. Pratt, (Sat Jul 28, 5:07 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Michael Chang, (Sat Jul 28, 9:18 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sat Jul 28, 1:25 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, jos poortvliet, (Sat Jul 28, 2:03 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sat Jul 28, 2:28 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, jos poortvliet, (Sat Jul 28, 3:28 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sat Jul 28, 4:31 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Roman Zippel, (Wed Aug 1, 12:17 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Carlo Florendo, (Wed Aug 1, 1:46 am)
RE: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Hua Zhong, (Wed Aug 1, 2:16 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Alan Cox, (Wed Aug 1, 8:31 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Carlo Florendo, (Wed Aug 1, 3:09 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Con Kolivas, (Sat Jul 28, 8:03 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Charles philip Chan, (Sat Jul 28, 9:23 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Bill Huey, (Sat Jul 28, 4:07 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Diego Calleja, (Sat Jul 28, 5:06 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Daniel Phillips, (Tue Aug 7, 2:55 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Alan Cox, (Tue Aug 7, 11:33 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Bill Huey, (Sat Jul 28, 5:32 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sat Jul 28, 6:18 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Bill Huey, (Sat Jul 28, 9:00 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Diego Calleja, (Sun Jul 29, 10:31 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Mike Galbraith, (Sun Jul 29, 4:25 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Bill Huey, (Sun Jul 29, 5:48 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Mike Galbraith, (Mon Jul 30, 1:03 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Martin Steigerwald, (Sun Jul 29, 2:31 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Martin Steigerwald, (Sat Jul 28, 6:05 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Dirk Schoebel, (Sat Jul 28, 7:06 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Kasper Sandberg, (Sat Jul 28, 5:44 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sat Jul 28, 1:50 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Jan Engelhardt, (Sat Jul 28, 3:13 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sat Jul 28, 3:34 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Jan Engelhardt, (Wed Aug 1, 5:21 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sat Jul 28, 5:33 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Jan Engelhardt, (Sat Jul 28, 5:55 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Linus Torvalds, (Sat Jul 28, 6:22 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Kasper Sandberg, (Sat Jul 28, 2:07 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Matthew Hawkins, (Sat Jul 28, 3:36 am)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Martin Steigerwald, (Sat Jul 28, 6:40 am)
Reporting bugs (was Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1), Stefan Richter, (Sat Jul 28, 12:10 pm)
Re: Reporting bugs (was Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1), Michal Piotrowski, (Sat Jul 28, 12:21 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Grzegorz Kulewski, (Sat Jul 28, 3:09 am)
SD still better than CFS for 3d , Kasper Sandberg, (Fri Jul 27, 7:43 am)
Re: SD still better than CFS for 3d ?(was Re: 2.6.23-rc1), Kasper Sandberg, (Mon Jul 30, 7:46 pm)
Re: SD still better than CFS for 3d ?(was Re: 2.6.23-rc1), Peter Zijlstra, (Tue Jul 31, 2:31 am)
Re: SD still better than CFS for 3d ?(was Re: 2.6.23-rc1), J. Bruce Fields, (Thu Aug 2, 9:03 am)
Re: SD still better than CFS for 3d ?(was Re: 2.6.23-rc1), Trond Myklebust, (Thu Aug 2, 9:39 am)
Re: SD still better than CFS for 3d ?(was Re: 2.6.23-rc1), Kasper Sandberg, (Wed Aug 1, 7:43 pm)
Re: SD still better than CFS for 3d ?(was Re: 2.6.23-rc1), Kasper Sandberg, (Wed Aug 8, 10:38 am)
2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Alexey Dobriyan, (Mon Jul 23, 2:38 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Alexey Dobriyan, (Mon Jul 23, 3:01 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Andrew Morton, (Mon Jul 23, 4:24 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Mike Galbraith, (Tue Jul 24, 6:01 am)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Andrew Morton, (Tue Jul 24, 12:28 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Linus Torvalds, (Tue Jul 24, 2:25 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Mike Galbraith, (Wed Jul 25, 1:09 am)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Alexey Dobriyan, (Tue Jul 24, 4:05 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Cyrill Gorcunov, (Wed Jul 25, 1:44 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Mike Galbraith, (Tue Jul 24, 6:37 am)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Alexey Dobriyan, (Mon Jul 23, 4:40 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Alexey Dobriyan, (Mon Jul 23, 5:01 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Andrew Morton, (Mon Jul 23, 5:11 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Alexey Dobriyan, (Mon Jul 23, 6:04 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Andrew Morton, (Mon Jul 23, 6:27 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Jens Axboe, (Tue Jul 24, 4:17 am)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Jens Axboe, (Tue Jul 24, 4:22 am)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Dan Williams, (Tue Jul 24, 9:55 am)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Andrew Morton, (Tue Jul 24, 4:34 am)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Dan Williams, (Tue Jul 24, 10:00 am)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Alexey Dobriyan, (Tue Jul 24, 1:20 am)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Linus Torvalds, (Mon Jul 23, 5:28 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Adrian Bunk, (Tue Jul 24, 1:59 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Linus Torvalds, (Tue Jul 24, 2:14 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Andrew Morton, (Tue Jul 24, 2:28 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Linus Torvalds, (Tue Jul 24, 3:15 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Adrian Bunk, (Tue Jul 24, 3:40 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Linus Torvalds, (Tue Jul 24, 3:48 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Adrian Bunk, (Thu Jul 26, 2:07 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Linus Torvalds, (Thu Jul 26, 2:19 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Andi Kleen, (Tue Jul 24, 4:27 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Linus Torvalds, (Tue Jul 24, 3:45 pm)
Re: 2.6.23-rc1: BUG_ON in kmap_atomic_prot(), Sam Ravnborg, (Mon Jul 23, 5:37 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Gabriel C, (Mon Jul 23, 12:43 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Ismail , (Mon Jul 23, 12:57 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Alessandro Suardi, (Mon Jul 23, 4:44 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Len Brown, (Tue Jul 24, 10:49 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, xen fix, Ingo Molnar, (Mon Jul 23, 11:52 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1: ACPI-related oops on x86_64, Mel Gorman, (Mon Jul 23, 5:50 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1: ACPI-related oops on x86_64, Len Brown, (Mon Jul 23, 1:15 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1: ACPI-related oops on x86_64, Mel Gorman, (Tue Jul 24, 6:37 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Gabriel C, (Sun Jul 22, 10:48 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Gabriel C, (Sun Jul 22, 9:20 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Paul Mundt, (Sun Jul 22, 9:23 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Greg KH, (Mon Jul 23, 12:11 am)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Gabriel C, (Sun Jul 22, 9:27 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Paul Mundt, (Sun Jul 22, 9:40 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Alistair John Strachan, (Sun Jul 22, 7:33 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Roland McGrath, (Sun Jul 22, 7:51 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Adrian Bunk, (Sun Jul 22, 8:07 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Roland McGrath, (Sun Jul 22, 8:31 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Adrian Bunk, (Sun Jul 22, 9:43 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Andre Noll, (Sun Jul 22, 6:10 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Andi Kleen, (Sun Jul 22, 6:22 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Andre Noll, (Sun Jul 22, 7:23 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Andi Kleen, (Sun Jul 22, 7:31 pm)
Re: Linus 2.6.23-rc1, Jakub Jelinek, (Mon Jul 23, 2:07 am)