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Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60

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To: Eric Dumazet <dada1@...>
Cc: Chuck Ebbert <cebbert@...>, Ingo Molnar <mingo@...>, Jarek Poplawski <jarkao2@...>, Miklos Szeredi <miklos@...>, <chris@...>, <linux-kernel@...>, <tglx@...>, <akpm@...>
Date: Thursday, June 21, 2007 - 3:35 pm

On Thu, 21 Jun 2007, Linus Torvalds wrote:

Side note, and as a "truth in advertising" section: I'll have to admit 
that I argued against fair semaphores on the same grounds. I was wrong 
then (and eventually admitted it, and we obviously try to make our mutexes 
and semaphores fair these days!), and maybe I'm wrong now.

If somebody can actually come up with a sequence where we have spinlock 
starvation, and it's not about an example of bad locking, and nobody 
really can come up with any other way to fix it, we may eventually have to 
add the notion of "fair spinlocks".

So my arguments are purely pragmatic. It's not that I hate fairness per 
se. I dislike it only when it's used to "solve" (aka hide) other problems.

In the end, some situations do need fairness, and the fact that aiming for 
fairness is often harder, slower, and more complicated than not doing so 
at that point turns into a non-argument. If you need it, you need it.

I just don't think we need it, and we're better off solving problems other 
ways.

(For example, we might also solve such problems by creating a separate
"fair_spin_lock" abstraction, and only making the particular users that 
need it actually use it. It would depend a bit on whether the cost of 
implementing the fairness is noticeable enough for it to be worth having 
a separate construct for it).

		Linus
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Messages in current thread:
[BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Miklos Szeredi, (Thu May 24, 8:04 am)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh..., (Thu May 24, 6:08 pm)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Kok, Auke, (Thu May 24, 6:13 pm)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Ingo Molnar, (Fri May 25, 2:58 am)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Ingo Molnar, (Thu May 24, 8:54 am)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Miklos Szeredi, (Thu May 24, 10:03 am)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Ingo Molnar, (Thu May 24, 10:10 am)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Miklos Szeredi, (Thu May 24, 10:28 am)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Ingo Molnar, (Thu May 24, 10:42 am)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Ingo Molnar, (Thu May 24, 10:44 am)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Miklos Szeredi, (Thu May 24, 1:09 pm)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Ingo Molnar, (Thu May 24, 5:01 pm)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Miklos Szeredi, (Fri May 25, 5:51 am)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Miklos Szeredi, (Thu Jun 14, 12:04 pm)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Ingo Molnar, (Sat Jun 16, 6:37 am)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Miklos Szeredi, (Sun Jun 17, 5:46 pm)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Ingo Molnar, (Mon Jun 18, 2:43 am)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Miklos Szeredi, (Mon Jun 18, 3:24 am)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Ingo Molnar, (Mon Jun 18, 4:12 am)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Linus Torvalds, (Mon Jun 18, 12:34 pm)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Jarek Poplawski, (Wed Jun 20, 5:36 am)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Jun 20, 1:34 pm)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Ingo Molnar, (Thu Jun 21, 3:30 am)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Jun 21, 11:50 am)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Ingo Molnar, (Thu Jun 21, 12:08 pm)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Chuck Ebbert, (Thu Jun 21, 12:44 pm)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Jun 21, 1:31 pm)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Ingo Molnar, (Thu Jun 21, 4:18 pm)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Jun 21, 4:36 pm)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Ingo Molnar, (Thu Jun 21, 4:16 pm)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Ingo Molnar, (Fri Jun 22, 4:17 am)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Miklos Szeredi, (Sat Jun 23, 6:36 am)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Jarek Poplawski, (Mon Jun 25, 2:45 am)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Linus Torvalds, (Sat Jun 23, 12:39 pm)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Eric Dumazet, (Thu Jun 21, 2:29 pm)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Jun 21, 2:44 pm)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Nick Piggin, (Tue Jun 26, 4:42 am)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Linus Torvalds, (Tue Jun 26, 1:23 pm)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Nick Piggin, (Wed Jun 27, 1:23 am)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Jun 27, 2:04 am)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Jun 27, 3:47 pm)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Nick Piggin, (Mon Jul 2, 3:06 am)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Davide Libenzi, (Wed Jun 27, 4:17 pm)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Jun 27, 6:11 pm)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Davide Libenzi, (Wed Jun 27, 7:30 pm)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Jun 27, 8:46 pm)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Davide Libenzi, (Wed Jun 27, 11:03 pm)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Ingo Molnar, (Wed Jun 27, 4:10 pm)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Nick Piggin, (Wed Jun 27, 2:20 am)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Jarek Poplawski, (Tue Jun 26, 6:56 am)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Ingo Molnar, (Thu Jun 21, 4:12 pm)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Ingo Molnar, (Thu Jun 21, 3:56 pm)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Jun 21, 4:10 pm)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Ingo Molnar, (Thu Jun 21, 4:23 pm)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Jun 21, 3:35 pm)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Eric Dumazet, (Thu Jun 21, 4:36 pm)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Ingo Molnar, (Thu Jun 21, 4:09 pm)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Jun 21, 4:14 pm)
[patch] spinlock debug: make looping nicer, Ingo Molnar, (Thu Jun 21, 4:42 pm)
Re: [patch] spinlock debug: make looping nicer, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Jun 21, 4:58 pm)
Re: [patch] spinlock debug: make looping nicer, Ingo Molnar, (Thu Jun 21, 5:15 pm)
Re: [patch] spinlock debug: make looping nicer, Jarek Poplawski, (Fri Jun 22, 3:00 am)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Ingo Molnar, (Thu Jun 21, 4:30 pm)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Jun 21, 4:48 pm)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Ingo Molnar, (Thu Jun 21, 5:06 pm)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Jun 21, 12:32 pm)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Jarek Poplawski, (Thu Jun 21, 3:38 am)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Jun 21, 12:01 pm)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Jarek Poplawski, (Fri Jun 22, 6:38 am)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Ingo Molnar, (Thu Jun 21, 4:39 am)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Jarek Poplawski, (Thu Jun 21, 7:09 am)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Ingo Molnar, (Mon Jun 18, 2:00 pm)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Linus Torvalds, (Mon Jun 18, 2:25 pm)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Miklos Szeredi, (Mon Jun 18, 1:41 pm)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Linus Torvalds, (Mon Jun 18, 1:48 pm)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Ingo Molnar, (Mon Jun 18, 2:02 pm)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Miklos Szeredi, (Mon Jun 18, 4:25 am)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Ingo Molnar, (Mon Jun 18, 4:31 am)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Miklos Szeredi, (Mon Jun 18, 4:34 am)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Ingo Molnar, (Mon Jun 18, 5:18 am)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Ingo Molnar, (Mon Jun 18, 5:38 am)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Ingo Molnar, (Mon Jun 18, 5:44 am)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Miklos Szeredi, (Mon Jun 18, 6:18 am)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Ingo Molnar, (Mon Jun 18, 8:36 am)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Miklos Szeredi, (Mon Jun 18, 9:10 am)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Andrew Morton, (Mon Jun 18, 4:20 am)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Ravikiran G Thirumalai, (Tue Jun 19, 12:22 am)
Re: [BUG] long freezes on thinkpad t60, Chuck Ebbert, (Fri Jun 15, 5:25 pm)
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