Re: Back to the future.

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To: Rafael J. Wysocki <rjw@...>
Cc: Nigel Cunningham <nigel@...>, Pekka J Enberg <penberg@...>, LKML <linux-kernel@...>
Date: Friday, April 27, 2007 - 7:59 pm

On Sat, 28 Apr 2007, Rafael J. Wysocki wrote:

That makes no sense.

You have to create the snapshot image with interrupts disabled *anyway*.

I really don't see how you can say that stopping threads etc can make any 
difference what-so-ever. If you don't create the snapshot with interrupts 
disabled (and just with a single CPU running) you have so many other 
problems that it's not even remotely funny.

So there's *by*definition* nothing at all that can happen while you 
snapshot the system. Claiming otherwise is just silly.


Like getting rid of all the magic "I don't want you to freeze me" crud? 

Or getting rid of this horribly idiotic "three times widdershins" kind of 
black magic mentality! It looks like the main reason for the process 
freezing has nothing to do with technology, but some irrational fear of 
other things happening at the same time, even though they CANNOT happen if 
you do things even half-way sanely.

The "let's stop all kernel threads" is superstition. It's the same kind of 
superstition that made people write "sync" three times before turning off 
the power in the olden times. It's the kind of superstition that comes 
from "we don't do things right, so let's be vewy vewy quiet and _pray_ 
that it works when we are beign quiet".

That's bad.

It's doubly bad, because that idiocy has also infected s2ram. Again, 
another thing that really makes no sense at all - and we do it not just 
for snapshotting, but for s2ram too. Can you tell me *why*?


Like you wouldn't know. Look at commit b43376927a that you yourself are 
credited with, just a month ago. 

Then, do something as simple as

	git grep create_freezeable_workthread

and ponder the end results of that grep. If you don't see something wrong, 
you're blind.


Who do you think you are kidding? See above.

And if you think that's an isolated example, look again. And start 
grepping for PF_NOFREEZE, and other examples.

The fact is, there is not a *single* reason to freeze kernel threads. But 
some rocket scientist decided to, and then screwed everybody else over.

			Linus
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Messages in current thread:
Back to the future., Nigel Cunningham, (Thu Apr 26, 2:04 am)
Re: Back to the future., Jan Engelhardt, (Thu Apr 26, 4:38 am)
Re: Back to the future., Nigel Cunningham, (Thu Apr 26, 5:33 am)
Re: Back to the future., Pekka Enberg, (Thu Apr 26, 3:28 am)
Re: Back to the future., Nigel Cunningham, (Thu Apr 26, 3:42 am)
Re: Back to the future., Linus Torvalds, (Thu Apr 26, 12:56 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Chase Venters, (Thu Apr 26, 2:22 pm)
Re: Back to the future., David Lang, (Thu Apr 26, 2:50 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Linus Torvalds, (Thu Apr 26, 1:07 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Pavel Machek, (Fri Apr 27, 8:49 am)
Re: Back to the future., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Fri Apr 27, 5:26 pm)
Re: Back to the future., David Lang, (Fri Apr 27, 6:12 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Pavel Machek, (Thu Apr 26, 6:42 pm)
Re: Back to the future., David Lang, (Thu Apr 26, 6:24 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Pavel Machek, (Thu Apr 26, 7:12 pm)
Re: Back to the future., David Lang, (Thu Apr 26, 6:49 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Olivier Galibert, (Thu Apr 26, 8:23 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Pavel Machek, (Thu Apr 26, 7:27 pm)
Re: Back to the future., David Lang, (Thu Apr 26, 6:56 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Pavel Machek, (Thu Apr 26, 6:40 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Pekka Enberg, (Fri Apr 27, 1:41 am)
Re: Back to the future., Pavel Machek, (Fri Apr 27, 10:55 am)
Re: Back to the future., Nigel Cunningham, (Fri Apr 27, 5:39 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Nigel Cunningham, (Thu Apr 26, 3:56 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Pekka J Enberg, (Fri Apr 27, 12:52 am)
Re: Back to the future., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Fri Apr 27, 4:44 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Nigel Cunningham, (Fri Apr 27, 2:08 am)
Re: Back to the future., Pekka J Enberg, (Fri Apr 27, 2:18 am)
Re: Back to the future., Pekka J Enberg, (Fri Apr 27, 2:29 am)
Re: Back to the future., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Fri Apr 27, 5:24 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Linus Torvalds, (Fri Apr 27, 5:44 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Jeremy Fitzhardinge, (Fri Apr 27, 8:18 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Matthew Garrett, (Fri Apr 27, 9:00 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Jeremy Fitzhardinge, (Fri Apr 27, 9:05 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Pavel Machek, (Thu May 3, 11:14 am)
Re: Back to the future., Eric W. Biederman, (Fri Jun 1, 3:00 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Fri Apr 27, 9:08 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Fri Apr 27, 6:04 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Linus Torvalds, (Fri Apr 27, 6:08 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Fri Apr 27, 6:41 pm)
Re: Back to the future., David Lang, (Fri Apr 27, 6:26 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Fri Apr 27, 7:21 pm)
Re: Back to the future., David Lang, (Fri Apr 27, 7:01 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Fri Apr 27, 8:02 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Linus Torvalds, (Fri Apr 27, 7:17 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Pavel Machek, (Thu May 3, 11:25 am)
Re: Back to the future., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Fri Apr 27, 7:45 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Linus Torvalds, (Fri Apr 27, 7:59 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Linus Torvalds, (Fri Apr 27, 8:18 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Pavel Machek, (Sat May 5, 7:42 am)
Re: Back to the future., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Fri Apr 27, 9:00 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Linus Torvalds, (Fri Apr 27, 9:12 pm)
Re: Back to the future., David Lang, (Fri Apr 27, 8:54 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Fri Apr 27, 9:44 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Pavel Machek, (Sat Apr 28, 4:50 am)
Re: Back to the future., David Lang, (Sat Apr 28, 2:32 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Sat Apr 28, 3:14 pm)
Re: Back to the future., David Lang, (Sat Apr 28, 2:44 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Linus Torvalds, (Sat Apr 28, 12:28 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Sat Apr 28, 1:50 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Linus Torvalds, (Sat Apr 28, 5:25 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Pavel Machek, (Sun Apr 29, 4:23 am)
Re: Back to the future., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Sun Apr 29, 5:22 am)
Re: Back to the future., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Sat Apr 28, 7:03 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Linus Torvalds, (Sat Apr 28, 7:45 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Kyle Moffett, (Sat Apr 28, 11:43 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Sun Apr 29, 4:57 am)
Re: Back to the future., Pavel Machek, (Sun Apr 29, 4:59 am)
Re: Back to the future., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Sun Apr 29, 5:32 am)
Re: Back to the future., Nigel Cunningham, (Sat Apr 28, 8:01 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Sat Apr 28, 5:24 am)
Re: Back to the future., Daniel Hazelton, (Fri Apr 27, 10:51 pm)
progress meter in s2disk (was Re: Back to the future.), Pavel Machek, (Sat Apr 28, 3:00 am)
Re: Back to the future., Paul Mackerras, (Fri Apr 27, 8:50 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Nigel Cunningham, (Fri Apr 27, 7:57 pm)
Re: Back to the future., David Lang, (Fri Apr 27, 7:50 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Linus Torvalds, (Fri Apr 27, 8:40 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Pavel Machek, (Thu May 3, 1:18 pm)
Re: Back to the future., David Lang, (Sun May 6, 10:13 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Kyle Moffett, (Sun May 6, 11:33 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Pavel Machek, (Mon May 7, 8:48 am)
Re: Back to the future., Oliver Neukum, (Mon May 7, 8:52 am)
Re: Back to the future., , (Mon May 7, 10:37 am)
Re: Back to the future., Pavel Machek, (Mon May 7, 3:51 pm)
Re: Back to the future., , (Mon May 7, 3:55 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Pavel Machek, (Mon May 7, 4:38 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Disconnect, (Tue May 8, 1:36 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Oliver Neukum, (Sat Apr 28, 2:58 am)
Re: Back to the future., Pekka J Enberg, (Sat Apr 28, 5:16 am)
Re: Back to the future., David Lang, (Sat Apr 28, 2:28 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Nigel Cunningham, (Fri Apr 27, 6:07 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Kyle Moffett, (Fri Apr 27, 9:03 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Pavel Machek, (Thu May 3, 11:10 am)
Re: Back to the future., Kyle Moffett, (Thu May 3, 12:53 pm)
Re: Back to the future., David Greaves, (Fri May 4, 3:52 am)
Re: Back to the future., Kyle Moffett, (Fri May 4, 9:27 am)
Re: Back to the future., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Fri Apr 27, 9:15 pm)
Re: Back to the future., David Lang, (Fri Apr 27, 8:51 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Kyle Moffett, (Fri Apr 27, 9:25 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Oliver Neukum, (Fri Apr 27, 5:50 am)
Re: Back to the future., Pekka J Enberg, (Fri Apr 27, 6:12 am)
Re: Back to the future., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Sat Apr 28, 6:35 am)
Re: Back to the future., David Lang, (Sat Apr 28, 2:43 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Sat Apr 28, 3:37 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Oliver Neukum, (Fri Apr 27, 3:07 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Pekka Enberg, (Sat Apr 28, 5:22 am)
Re: Back to the future., Oliver Neukum, (Sat Apr 28, 9:37 am)
Re: Back to the future., Pavel Machek, (Thu May 3, 8:06 am)
Re: Back to the future., Indan Zupancic, (Fri May 4, 5:52 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Pavel Machek, (Sat May 5, 5:16 am)
Re: Back to the future., Indan Zupancic, (Sat May 5, 8:02 am)
Re: Back to the future., Nigel Cunningham, (Fri Apr 27, 2:34 am)
Re: Back to the future., Pekka J Enberg, (Fri Apr 27, 2:50 am)
Re: Back to the future., Nigel Cunningham, (Fri Apr 27, 3:03 am)
Re: Back to the future., Pekka J Enberg, (Fri Apr 27, 3:24 am)
Re: Back to the future., Bill Davidsen, (Sat Apr 28, 3:09 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Xavier Bestel, (Thu Apr 26, 1:03 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Linus Torvalds, (Thu Apr 26, 1:34 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Pekka Enberg, (Fri Apr 27, 3:51 am)
Re: Back to the future., Nigel Cunningham, (Thu Apr 26, 4:08 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Linus Torvalds, (Thu Apr 26, 4:45 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Nigel Cunningham, (Thu Apr 26, 4:50 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Olivier Galibert, (Thu Apr 26, 8:10 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Daniel Pittman, (Fri Apr 27, 6:21 am)
Re: Back to the future., Nigel Cunningham, (Fri Apr 27, 7:19 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Thu Apr 26, 6:08 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Linus Torvalds, (Thu Apr 26, 7:15 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Nigel Cunningham, (Thu Apr 26, 6:20 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Theodore Tso, (Thu Apr 26, 5:38 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Christoph Hellwig, (Fri Apr 27, 6:10 am)
Re: Back to the future., Pekka Enberg, (Thu Apr 26, 4:17 am)
Re: Back to the future., Nigel Cunningham, (Thu Apr 26, 5:28 am)
Re: Back to the future., Luca Tettamanti, (Thu Apr 26, 1:29 pm)