Re: Back to the future.

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To: Rafael J. Wysocki <rjw@...>
Cc: Pekka J Enberg <penberg@...>, Nigel Cunningham <nigel@...>, LKML <linux-kernel@...>
Date: Friday, April 27, 2007 - 7:17 pm

On Sat, 28 Apr 2007, Rafael J. Wysocki wrote:

That's not an advantage. That's why it has *sucked*.

Trying to freeze kernel threads has _caused_ problems. It has _added_ 
these interdependencies. It hasn't removed a single dependency at any 
time, it has just added new problems!


NONE of these are valid explanations at all. You're listing totally 
theoretical problems, and ignoring all the _real_ problems that trying to 
freeze kernel threads has _caused_.

If you want to control user-mode helpers, you do that - you do not freeze 
kernel threads!

And no, kernel threads do not submit IO to disks on their own. You just 
made that up. Yes, they can be involved in that whole disk submission 
thing, but in a good way - they can be required in order to make disk 
writing work!

The problem that suspend has had is that it's done everything totally the 
wrong way around. Do kernel threads do disk IO? Sure, if asked to do so. 
For example, kernel threads can be involved in md etc, but that's a *good* 
thing. The way to shut them up is not to freeze the threads, but to freeze 
the *disk*.

		Linus
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Messages in current thread:
Back to the future., Nigel Cunningham, (Thu Apr 26, 2:04 am)
Re: Back to the future., Jan Engelhardt, (Thu Apr 26, 4:38 am)
Re: Back to the future., Nigel Cunningham, (Thu Apr 26, 5:33 am)
Re: Back to the future., Pekka Enberg, (Thu Apr 26, 3:28 am)
Re: Back to the future., Nigel Cunningham, (Thu Apr 26, 3:42 am)
Re: Back to the future., Linus Torvalds, (Thu Apr 26, 12:56 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Chase Venters, (Thu Apr 26, 2:22 pm)
Re: Back to the future., David Lang, (Thu Apr 26, 2:50 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Linus Torvalds, (Thu Apr 26, 1:07 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Pavel Machek, (Fri Apr 27, 8:49 am)
Re: Back to the future., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Fri Apr 27, 5:26 pm)
Re: Back to the future., David Lang, (Fri Apr 27, 6:12 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Pavel Machek, (Thu Apr 26, 6:42 pm)
Re: Back to the future., David Lang, (Thu Apr 26, 6:24 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Pavel Machek, (Thu Apr 26, 7:12 pm)
Re: Back to the future., David Lang, (Thu Apr 26, 6:49 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Olivier Galibert, (Thu Apr 26, 8:23 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Pavel Machek, (Thu Apr 26, 7:27 pm)
Re: Back to the future., David Lang, (Thu Apr 26, 6:56 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Pavel Machek, (Thu Apr 26, 6:40 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Pekka Enberg, (Fri Apr 27, 1:41 am)
Re: Back to the future., Pavel Machek, (Fri Apr 27, 10:55 am)
Re: Back to the future., Nigel Cunningham, (Fri Apr 27, 5:39 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Nigel Cunningham, (Thu Apr 26, 3:56 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Pekka J Enberg, (Fri Apr 27, 12:52 am)
Re: Back to the future., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Fri Apr 27, 4:44 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Nigel Cunningham, (Fri Apr 27, 2:08 am)
Re: Back to the future., Pekka J Enberg, (Fri Apr 27, 2:18 am)
Re: Back to the future., Pekka J Enberg, (Fri Apr 27, 2:29 am)
Re: Back to the future., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Fri Apr 27, 5:24 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Linus Torvalds, (Fri Apr 27, 5:44 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Jeremy Fitzhardinge, (Fri Apr 27, 8:18 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Matthew Garrett, (Fri Apr 27, 9:00 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Jeremy Fitzhardinge, (Fri Apr 27, 9:05 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Pavel Machek, (Thu May 3, 11:14 am)
Re: Back to the future., Eric W. Biederman, (Fri Jun 1, 3:00 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Fri Apr 27, 9:08 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Fri Apr 27, 6:04 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Linus Torvalds, (Fri Apr 27, 6:08 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Fri Apr 27, 6:41 pm)
Re: Back to the future., David Lang, (Fri Apr 27, 6:26 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Fri Apr 27, 7:21 pm)
Re: Back to the future., David Lang, (Fri Apr 27, 7:01 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Fri Apr 27, 8:02 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Linus Torvalds, (Fri Apr 27, 7:17 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Pavel Machek, (Thu May 3, 11:25 am)
Re: Back to the future., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Fri Apr 27, 7:45 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Linus Torvalds, (Fri Apr 27, 7:59 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Linus Torvalds, (Fri Apr 27, 8:18 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Pavel Machek, (Sat May 5, 7:42 am)
Re: Back to the future., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Fri Apr 27, 9:00 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Linus Torvalds, (Fri Apr 27, 9:12 pm)
Re: Back to the future., David Lang, (Fri Apr 27, 8:54 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Fri Apr 27, 9:44 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Pavel Machek, (Sat Apr 28, 4:50 am)
Re: Back to the future., David Lang, (Sat Apr 28, 2:32 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Sat Apr 28, 3:14 pm)
Re: Back to the future., David Lang, (Sat Apr 28, 2:44 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Linus Torvalds, (Sat Apr 28, 12:28 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Sat Apr 28, 1:50 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Linus Torvalds, (Sat Apr 28, 5:25 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Pavel Machek, (Sun Apr 29, 4:23 am)
Re: Back to the future., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Sun Apr 29, 5:22 am)
Re: Back to the future., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Sat Apr 28, 7:03 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Linus Torvalds, (Sat Apr 28, 7:45 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Kyle Moffett, (Sat Apr 28, 11:43 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Sun Apr 29, 4:57 am)
Re: Back to the future., Pavel Machek, (Sun Apr 29, 4:59 am)
Re: Back to the future., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Sun Apr 29, 5:32 am)
Re: Back to the future., Nigel Cunningham, (Sat Apr 28, 8:01 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Sat Apr 28, 5:24 am)
Re: Back to the future., Daniel Hazelton, (Fri Apr 27, 10:51 pm)
progress meter in s2disk (was Re: Back to the future.), Pavel Machek, (Sat Apr 28, 3:00 am)
Re: Back to the future., Paul Mackerras, (Fri Apr 27, 8:50 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Nigel Cunningham, (Fri Apr 27, 7:57 pm)
Re: Back to the future., David Lang, (Fri Apr 27, 7:50 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Linus Torvalds, (Fri Apr 27, 8:40 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Pavel Machek, (Thu May 3, 1:18 pm)
Re: Back to the future., David Lang, (Sun May 6, 10:13 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Kyle Moffett, (Sun May 6, 11:33 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Pavel Machek, (Mon May 7, 8:48 am)
Re: Back to the future., Oliver Neukum, (Mon May 7, 8:52 am)
Re: Back to the future., , (Mon May 7, 10:37 am)
Re: Back to the future., Pavel Machek, (Mon May 7, 3:51 pm)
Re: Back to the future., , (Mon May 7, 3:55 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Pavel Machek, (Mon May 7, 4:38 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Disconnect, (Tue May 8, 1:36 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Oliver Neukum, (Sat Apr 28, 2:58 am)
Re: Back to the future., Pekka J Enberg, (Sat Apr 28, 5:16 am)
Re: Back to the future., David Lang, (Sat Apr 28, 2:28 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Nigel Cunningham, (Fri Apr 27, 6:07 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Kyle Moffett, (Fri Apr 27, 9:03 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Pavel Machek, (Thu May 3, 11:10 am)
Re: Back to the future., Kyle Moffett, (Thu May 3, 12:53 pm)
Re: Back to the future., David Greaves, (Fri May 4, 3:52 am)
Re: Back to the future., Kyle Moffett, (Fri May 4, 9:27 am)
Re: Back to the future., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Fri Apr 27, 9:15 pm)
Re: Back to the future., David Lang, (Fri Apr 27, 8:51 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Kyle Moffett, (Fri Apr 27, 9:25 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Oliver Neukum, (Fri Apr 27, 5:50 am)
Re: Back to the future., Pekka J Enberg, (Fri Apr 27, 6:12 am)
Re: Back to the future., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Sat Apr 28, 6:35 am)
Re: Back to the future., David Lang, (Sat Apr 28, 2:43 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Sat Apr 28, 3:37 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Oliver Neukum, (Fri Apr 27, 3:07 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Pekka Enberg, (Sat Apr 28, 5:22 am)
Re: Back to the future., Oliver Neukum, (Sat Apr 28, 9:37 am)
Re: Back to the future., Pavel Machek, (Thu May 3, 8:06 am)
Re: Back to the future., Indan Zupancic, (Fri May 4, 5:52 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Pavel Machek, (Sat May 5, 5:16 am)
Re: Back to the future., Indan Zupancic, (Sat May 5, 8:02 am)
Re: Back to the future., Nigel Cunningham, (Fri Apr 27, 2:34 am)
Re: Back to the future., Pekka J Enberg, (Fri Apr 27, 2:50 am)
Re: Back to the future., Nigel Cunningham, (Fri Apr 27, 3:03 am)
Re: Back to the future., Pekka J Enberg, (Fri Apr 27, 3:24 am)
Re: Back to the future., Bill Davidsen, (Sat Apr 28, 3:09 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Xavier Bestel, (Thu Apr 26, 1:03 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Linus Torvalds, (Thu Apr 26, 1:34 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Pekka Enberg, (Fri Apr 27, 3:51 am)
Re: Back to the future., Nigel Cunningham, (Thu Apr 26, 4:08 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Linus Torvalds, (Thu Apr 26, 4:45 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Nigel Cunningham, (Thu Apr 26, 4:50 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Olivier Galibert, (Thu Apr 26, 8:10 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Daniel Pittman, (Fri Apr 27, 6:21 am)
Re: Back to the future., Nigel Cunningham, (Fri Apr 27, 7:19 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Rafael J. Wysocki, (Thu Apr 26, 6:08 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Linus Torvalds, (Thu Apr 26, 7:15 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Nigel Cunningham, (Thu Apr 26, 6:20 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Theodore Tso, (Thu Apr 26, 5:38 pm)
Re: Back to the future., Christoph Hellwig, (Fri Apr 27, 6:10 am)
Re: Back to the future., Pekka Enberg, (Thu Apr 26, 4:17 am)
Re: Back to the future., Nigel Cunningham, (Thu Apr 26, 5:28 am)
Re: Back to the future., Luca Tettamanti, (Thu Apr 26, 1:29 pm)