Re: is RSDL an "unfair" scheduler too?

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From: Ingo Molnar
Date: Saturday, March 17, 2007 - 9:34 am

* Con Kolivas <kernel@kolivas.org> wrote:


( i really think we should continue this debate after you get better. 
  Everything looks much darker when you are ill! )


I said that 2 years ago about the staircase scheduler and i am still 
saying this about RSDL today. That doesnt make my position automatically 
correct though :-) For example i wrote and maintained the 4g:4g patchset 
for over 2 years and still that was no guarantee of it making sense 
upstream ;) And it was a hell of a lot of work (much uglier and nastier 
work than any scheduler hacking and tuning, believe me), and it was 
thrown away as a cute but unnecessary complication we dont need. So 
what? To me what matters is the path you walk, not the destination you 
reach.

in terms of RSDL design, i like it, still i'm kind of asking myself 
'couldnt something in this direction be done in a much simpler and less 
revolutionary way'? For example couldnt we introduce per-priority level 
timeslice quotas in the current scheme as well, instead of the very 
simplistic and crude STARVATION_LIMIT approach? Furthermore, couldnt we 
make the timeslices become smaller as the runqueue length increases, to 
make starvation less of a problem? It seems like the problem cases with 
the current scheduler arent so much centered around the interactivity 
estimator, it is more that timeslices get distributed too coarsely, 
while RSDL distributes timeslices in a more finegrained way and is thus 
less suspect to starvation under certain workloads.

in any case, regardless the technical picture, i do get nervous when a 
group of people tries to out-shout clearly valid feedback like Mike's, 
and i'll try to balance such effects out a bit. _Of course_ those people 
that are not happy with the current scheduler have a higher likelyhood 
to try out another scheduler and be happy about it - but we should not 
allow that natural bias (which, btw., could easily be the _truth_, so 
i'm not assuming anything) to stand in the way of critical thinking. I 
also get slightly nervous about what appears to be dubious technical 
claims like "this is X's fault and if you rewrite X it will work much 
better so go away and do not stand in the way of progress" or "this new 
scheduler does away with all those ugly heuristics". I'm almost getting 
a reiser4 de ja vu :-/

we should really let this sit through in -mm for at least one more 
kernel iteration, let more folks be exposed to it and keep an eye on 
regression reports. [ An _eye_, not a machine gun ;-) ]

	Ingo
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Messages in current thread:
RSDL development plans, Con Kolivas, (Tue Mar 13, 4:08 pm)
Re: RSDL development plans, Con Kolivas, (Fri Mar 16, 5:25 am)
RSDL v0.31, Con Kolivas, (Fri Mar 16, 6:40 am)
Re: RSDL development plans, Mike Galbraith, (Fri Mar 16, 6:42 am)
Re: RSDL development plans, Con Kolivas, (Fri Mar 16, 6:59 am)
Re: RSDL development plans, Mike Galbraith, (Fri Mar 16, 7:07 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Mike Galbraith, (Fri Mar 16, 8:34 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, AshMilsted, (Fri Mar 16, 10:12 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Gabriel C, (Fri Mar 16, 10:41 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Con Kolivas, (Fri Mar 16, 2:13 pm)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Al Boldi, (Fri Mar 16, 2:55 pm)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Mike Galbraith, (Fri Mar 16, 3:30 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: RSDL v0.31, Dirk Schoebel, (Fri Mar 16, 4:05 pm)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Con Kolivas, (Fri Mar 16, 7:51 pm)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Nicholas Miell, (Fri Mar 16, 9:24 pm)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Al Boldi, (Fri Mar 16, 9:40 pm)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Con Kolivas, (Fri Mar 16, 9:57 pm)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Gene Heskett, (Fri Mar 16, 10:15 pm)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Mike Galbraith, (Fri Mar 16, 10:56 pm)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Mike Galbraith, (Fri Mar 16, 11:08 pm)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Nicholas Miell, (Fri Mar 16, 11:26 pm)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Mike Galbraith, (Sat Mar 17, 12:11 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, William Lee Irwin III, (Sat Mar 17, 12:25 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Nicholas Miell, (Sat Mar 17, 12:29 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, David Lang, (Sat Mar 17, 12:44 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Ingo Molnar, (Sat Mar 17, 12:45 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Ingo Molnar, (Sat Mar 17, 12:56 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Nicholas Miell, (Sat Mar 17, 1:23 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Serge Belyshev, (Sat Mar 17, 1:41 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Mike Galbraith, (Sat Mar 17, 1:46 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Con Kolivas, (Sat Mar 17, 2:48 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Mike Galbraith, (Sat Mar 17, 2:58 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Mike Galbraith, (Sat Mar 17, 3:49 am)
Re: [ck] Re: RSDL v0.31, jos poortvliet, (Sat Mar 17, 4:07 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Gene Heskett, (Sat Mar 17, 4:48 am)
Re: is RSDL an &quot;unfair&quot; scheduler too?, Ingo Molnar, (Sat Mar 17, 4:49 am)
Re: is RSDL an &quot;unfair&quot; scheduler too?, Con Kolivas, (Sat Mar 17, 5:02 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Gene Heskett, (Sat Mar 17, 5:05 am)
Re: [ck] Re: is RSDL an &quot;unfair&quot; scheduler too?, jos poortvliet, (Sat Mar 17, 5:15 am)
Re: [ck] Re: is RSDL an &quot;unfair&quot; scheduler too?, jos poortvliet, (Sat Mar 17, 5:23 am)
Re: is RSDL an &quot;unfair&quot; scheduler too?, Ingo Molnar, (Sat Mar 17, 5:28 am)
Re: is RSDL an &quot;unfair&quot; scheduler too?, Con Kolivas, (Sat Mar 17, 5:43 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Ingo Molnar, (Sat Mar 17, 5:44 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Mike Galbraith, (Sat Mar 17, 6:36 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, jos poortvliet, (Sat Mar 17, 6:44 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Ed Tomlinson, (Sat Mar 17, 6:50 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Ed Tomlinson, (Sat Mar 17, 6:56 am)
Re: [ck] Re: RSDL v0.31, michael chang, (Sat Mar 17, 6:58 am)
Re: [ck] Re: RSDL v0.31, Ed Tomlinson, (Sat Mar 17, 7:04 am)
Re: [ck] Re: RSDL v0.31, Mark Glines, (Sat Mar 17, 7:09 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Rik van Riel, (Sat Mar 17, 7:32 am)
Re: [ck] Re: RSDL v0.31, Mike Galbraith, (Sat Mar 17, 7:33 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Mike Galbraith, (Sat Mar 17, 7:43 am)
Re: [ck] Re: RSDL v0.31, Mark Glines, (Sat Mar 17, 7:54 am)
Re: [ck] Re: RSDL v0.31, Mike Galbraith, (Sat Mar 17, 7:58 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Mark Hahn, (Sat Mar 17, 8:13 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Ingo Molnar, (Sat Mar 17, 8:39 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Al Boldi, (Sat Mar 17, 9:12 am)
Re: is RSDL an "unfair" scheduler too?, Ingo Molnar, (Sat Mar 17, 9:34 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Gene Heskett, (Sat Mar 17, 10:03 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Stephen Clark, (Sat Mar 17, 10:22 am)
RE: [ck] Re: is RSDL an &quot;unfair&quot; scheduler too?, David Schwartz, (Sat Mar 17, 10:31 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Mike Galbraith, (Sat Mar 17, 10:37 am)
Re: [ck] Re: RSDL v0.31, Kacper Wysocki, (Sat Mar 17, 11:23 am)
Re: [ck] Re: RSDL v0.31, Mike Galbraith, (Sat Mar 17, 11:45 am)
Re: is RSDL an &quot;unfair&quot; scheduler too?, Avi Kivity, (Sat Mar 17, 1:41 pm)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Al Boldi, (Sat Mar 17, 1:55 pm)
Re: is RSDL an &quot;unfair&quot; scheduler too?, William Lee Irwin III, (Sat Mar 17, 6:25 pm)
Re: is RSDL an &quot;unfair&quot; scheduler too?, Linus Torvalds, (Sat Mar 17, 6:32 pm)
Re: is RSDL an &quot;unfair&quot; scheduler too?, Bill Davidsen, (Sat Mar 17, 7:13 pm)
Re: is RSDL an &quot;unfair&quot; scheduler too?, Kasper Sandberg, (Sat Mar 17, 8:20 pm)
Re: is RSDL an &quot;unfair&quot; scheduler too?, Bill Davidsen, (Sat Mar 17, 8:23 pm)
Re: is RSDL an &quot;unfair&quot; scheduler too?, Avi Kivity, (Sat Mar 17, 10:00 pm)
Re: is RSDL an &quot;unfair&quot; scheduler too?, Willy Tarreau, (Sat Mar 17, 10:24 pm)
Re: is RSDL an &quot;unfair&quot; scheduler too?, Mike Galbraith, (Sat Mar 17, 10:37 pm)
Re: is RSDL an &quot;unfair&quot; scheduler too?, Avi Kivity, (Sat Mar 17, 10:55 pm)
Re: is RSDL an &quot;unfair&quot; scheduler too?, Bill Huey, (Sat Mar 17, 11:09 pm)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Mike Galbraith, (Sat Mar 17, 11:17 pm)
Re: is RSDL an &quot;unfair&quot; scheduler too?, Mike Galbraith, (Sat Mar 17, 11:26 pm)
Re: is RSDL an &quot;unfair&quot; scheduler too?, Mike Galbraith, (Sat Mar 17, 11:37 pm)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Kasper Sandberg, (Sat Mar 17, 11:47 pm)
Re: [ck] Re: is RSDL an &quot;unfair&quot; scheduler too?, Radoslaw Szkodzinski, (Sat Mar 17, 11:54 pm)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Mike Galbraith, (Sun Mar 18, 12:08 am)
Re: [ck] Re: RSDL v0.31, Radoslaw Szkodzinski, (Sun Mar 18, 12:22 am)
Re: is RSDL an &quot;unfair&quot; scheduler too?, Bill Huey, (Sun Mar 18, 12:35 am)
Re: [ck] Re: RSDL v0.31, Mike Galbraith, (Sun Mar 18, 12:38 am)
Re: [ck] Re: is RSDL an &quot;unfair&quot; scheduler too?, Willy Tarreau, (Sun Mar 18, 12:58 am)
Re: [ck] Re: RSDL v0.31, Mike Galbraith, (Sun Mar 18, 1:04 am)
Re: [ck] Re: RSDL v0.31, jimmy bahuleyan, (Sun Mar 18, 1:20 am)
Re: [ck] Re: RSDL v0.31, Mike Galbraith, (Sun Mar 18, 1:34 am)
Re: [ck] Re: RSDL v0.31, Kasper Sandberg, (Sun Mar 18, 2:57 am)
Re: [ck] Re: is RSDL an &quot;unfair&quot; scheduler too?, jos poortvliet, (Sun Mar 18, 3:58 am)
Re: [ck] Re: RSDL v0.31, Avuton Olrich, (Sun Mar 18, 6:57 am)
Re: [ck] Re: RSDL v0.31, Radoslaw Szkodzinski, (Sun Mar 18, 8:44 am)
Re: [ck] Re: RSDL v0.31, jos poortvliet, (Sun Mar 18, 9:09 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Lee Revell, (Sun Mar 18, 12:37 pm)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Mike Galbraith, (Sun Mar 18, 12:55 pm)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Szonyi Calin, (Sun Mar 18, 3:45 pm)
RE: is RSDL an &quot;unfair&quot; scheduler too?, David Schwartz, (Sun Mar 18, 7:27 pm)
RE: RSDL v0.31, David Schwartz, (Sun Mar 18, 7:27 pm)
RE: RSDL v0.31, Mike Galbraith, (Sun Mar 18, 11:21 pm)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Willy Tarreau, (Sun Mar 18, 11:59 pm)
Re: is RSDL an &quot;unfair&quot; scheduler too?, Radoslaw Szkodzinski, (Mon Mar 19, 6:27 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Chris Friesen, (Mon Mar 19, 8:06 am)
Re: is RSDL an &quot;unfair&quot; scheduler too?, Avi Kivity, (Mon Mar 19, 8:25 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Mark Lord, (Mon Mar 19, 9:03 am)
Re: is RSDL an &quot;unfair&quot; scheduler too?, Helge Hafting, (Mon Mar 19, 9:06 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Mark Lord, (Mon Mar 19, 9:07 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Xavier Bestel, (Mon Mar 19, 9:26 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Mark Lord, (Mon Mar 19, 9:36 am)
Re: is RSDL an &quot;unfair&quot; scheduler too?, Avi Kivity, (Mon Mar 19, 9:37 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Xavier Bestel, (Mon Mar 19, 9:43 am)
Re: is RSDL an &quot;unfair&quot; scheduler too?, David Lang, (Mon Mar 19, 11:30 am)
Re: [ck] Re: RSDL v0.31, Bill Davidsen, (Mon Mar 19, 1:47 pm)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Al Boldi, (Mon Mar 19, 1:53 pm)
Re: is RSDL an &quot;unfair&quot; scheduler too?, Bill Davidsen, (Mon Mar 19, 2:14 pm)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Linus Torvalds, (Mon Mar 19, 8:11 pm)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Willy Tarreau, (Mon Mar 19, 11:11 pm)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Mike Galbraith, (Tue Mar 20, 1:03 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Xavier Bestel, (Tue Mar 20, 2:03 am)
Re: [ck] Re: RSDL v0.31, jos poortvliet, (Tue Mar 20, 3:19 am)
Re: [ck] Re: RSDL v0.31, jos poortvliet, (Tue Mar 20, 3:26 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Artur Skawina, (Tue Mar 20, 5:31 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Mark Lord, (Tue Mar 20, 6:22 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Ray Lee, (Tue Mar 20, 8:16 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Mark Lord, (Tue Mar 20, 8:20 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Linus Torvalds, (Tue Mar 20, 8:31 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Al Boldi, (Tue Mar 20, 11:08 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Artur Skawina, (Tue Mar 20, 12:16 pm)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Artur Skawina, (Tue Mar 20, 12:50 pm)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Al Boldi, (Tue Mar 20, 9:15 pm)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Ingo Molnar, (Wed Mar 21, 12:50 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Keith Duthie, (Wed Mar 21, 1:22 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Kasper Sandberg, (Wed Mar 21, 1:55 am)
Re: [ck] Re: RSDL v0.31, Kasper Sandberg, (Wed Mar 21, 1:58 am)
RE: RSDL v0.31, David Schwartz, (Wed Mar 21, 3:43 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Mike Galbraith, (Wed Mar 21, 7:57 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Peter Zijlstra, (Wed Mar 21, 9:02 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Mike Galbraith, (Wed Mar 21, 10:06 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Artur Skawina, (Wed Mar 21, 10:24 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Mike Galbraith, (Thu Mar 22, 12:07 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Ingo Molnar, (Thu Mar 22, 2:18 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Mike Galbraith, (Thu Mar 22, 2:34 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Mike Galbraith, (Thu Mar 22, 2:41 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Con Kolivas, (Thu Mar 22, 3:03 pm)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Con Kolivas, (Thu Mar 22, 3:50 pm)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Mike Galbraith, (Thu Mar 22, 9:39 pm)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Con Kolivas, (Thu Mar 22, 10:59 pm)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Mike Galbraith, (Thu Mar 22, 11:11 pm)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Mike Galbraith, (Fri Mar 23, 5:17 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Bill Davidsen, (Wed Mar 28, 4:37 pm)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Bill Davidsen, (Wed Mar 28, 4:43 pm)
RE: RSDL v0.31, David Schwartz, (Thu Mar 29, 12:10 am)
Re: RSDL v0.31, Nick Piggin, (Thu Mar 29, 12:34 am)