Re: [ckrm-tech] [PATCH 0/2] resource control file system - aka containers on top of nsproxy!

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To: Paul Jackson <pj@...>
Cc: <ebiederm@...>, <matthltc@...>, <ckrm-tech@...>, <linux-kernel@...>, <xemul@...>, <winget@...>, <containers@...>, <menage@...>, <akpm@...>
Date: Monday, March 12, 2007 - 5:35 am

Allow me to annotate your nice summary. A lot of this is elaborating on
what you are saying; and I think where we disagree, the differences are
not important.

Paul Jackson wrote:

Right, which is why I preferred the term "mount space" or "mount
namespace". The keys in the map are not as important as the presence of
the independent map itself.

Unadorned "namespaces" is currently how they are known, and short of
becoming the Hurd I don't think this term is appropriate for Linux.


Yes, these systems, somewhat akin to microkernels, virtualize all
namespaces as a byproduct of their nature.


This has been the practice to date with most worked implementations,
with the proviso that as the feature becomes standard people may start
expecting spaces within spaces to work indistinguishably from top level
spaces; in fact, perhaps there should be no such distinction between a
"top" space and a subservient space, other than the higher level space
is aware of the subservient space.

Consider, for instance, that BIND already uses Linux kernel features
which are normally only attributed to the top space, such as adjusting
ulimits and unsetting capability bits. This kind of application
self-containment may become more commonplace.

And this perhaps begs the question: is it worth the performance penalty,
or must there be one?


Conceptually, every task exists in exactly one space of each type,
though that space may see and/or administer other spaces.


The term "metered" implies "a resource which renews over time". How does
this apply to a fixed limit? A limit's nominal unit may not be delimited
in terms of time, but it must be continually maintained, so it can be
"metered" in terms of use of that limit over time.

For instance, a single system in scheduling terms is limited to the use
of the number of CPUs present in the system. So, while it has a "limit"
of 2 CPUs, in terms of a metered resource, it has a maximum rate of 2
CPU seconds per second.


Indeed, and some of the key performance benefits of the containers
approach is that the resource limits may be implemented in a "soft"
fashion, that can makes available system resource in demand by some
containers. For instance, available RAM, or space in a filesystem.


I think this is most true from the perspective of the person managing
the system. They may set up arbitrarily complex rules to manage the
systems they are responsible for.

Namespaces may transfer and inherit properties as well. For instance in
the case of mount namespaces, clones of a mountspaces may in existing
kernels be set to receive updates of mounts in the mountspace it was
cloned from. In the case of a level 3 network space (netspace?
ipspace?), the parent namespace is responsible for the routing and
master iptables, and there may be rules determined about the
interoperation between, for instance the parent iptables and the
iptables which processes in the subservient space can affect.

The difference is that these relationships would not be expected to be
tuned, so much as a few common arrangements of inheritance and transfer
selected between. For instance, not every level 3 network space should
be able to access control iptables rules for its addresses.


Utmost care should be taken to checkpoint/migration as this filesystem
is developed; nothing should be revealed which would not be possible to
keep after a checkpoint + migration, as there may be running processes
which are inspecting the data available through the interface.


Different, I would say, largely because to be similar it would require
the abstractions and systems of the kernel to have been built using the
container / space as the starting point. So corresponding concepts meet
varying semantics on either side, so any attempt to build the systems
together would be fraught with difficulty.


Keep the last word.
Sam.
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Messages in current thread:
[PATCH 0/2] resource control file system - aka containers on..., Srivatsa Vaddagiri, (Thu Mar 1, 9:35 am)
Re: [PATCH 0/2] resource control file system - aka container..., Srivatsa Vaddagiri, (Wed Mar 7, 1:30 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/2] resource control file system - aka container..., Srivatsa Vaddagiri, (Thu Mar 8, 7:30 am)
Re: [PATCH 0/2] resource control file system - aka container..., Srivatsa Vaddagiri, (Fri Mar 9, 2:41 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/2] resource control file system - aka container..., Srivatsa Vaddagiri, (Wed Mar 7, 2:00 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/2] resource control file system - aka container..., Srivatsa Vaddagiri, (Fri Mar 9, 12:34 pm)
Re: [ckrm-tech] [PATCH 0/2] resource control file system - a..., Srivatsa Vaddagiri, (Mon Mar 12, 11:07 am)
Re: [ckrm-tech] [PATCH 0/2] resource control file system - a..., Srivatsa Vaddagiri, (Mon Mar 12, 12:20 pm)
Re: [ckrm-tech] [PATCH 0/2] resource control file system - a..., Srivatsa Vaddagiri, (Mon Mar 12, 10:22 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/2] resource control file system - aka container..., Srivatsa Vaddagiri, (Fri Mar 9, 10:02 pm)
Re: [ckrm-tech] [PATCH 0/2] resource control file system - a..., Srivatsa Vaddagiri, (Fri Mar 9, 11:19 pm)
Re: [ckrm-tech] [PATCH 0/2] resource control file system - a..., Srivatsa Vaddagiri, (Fri Mar 9, 12:41 pm)
Re: [ckrm-tech] [PATCH 0/2] resource control file system - a..., Srivatsa Vaddagiri, (Thu Mar 22, 10:08 am)
Re: [ckrm-tech] [PATCH 0/2] resource control file system - a..., Srivatsa Vaddagiri, (Thu Mar 22, 10:56 am)
Re: [ckrm-tech] [PATCH 0/2] resource control file system - a..., Sam Vilain, (Mon Mar 12, 5:35 am)
Re: [ckrm-tech] [PATCH 0/2] resource control file system - a..., Srivatsa Vaddagiri, (Fri Mar 9, 2:19 pm)
Re: [ckrm-tech] [PATCH 0/2] resource control file system - a..., Srivatsa Vaddagiri, (Mon Mar 12, 10:01 am)
Re: [ckrm-tech] [PATCH 0/2] resource control file system - a..., Srivatsa Vaddagiri, (Mon Mar 12, 11:15 am)
Re: [ckrm-tech] [PATCH 0/2] resource control file system - a..., Eric W. Biederman, (Wed Mar 7, 10:25 pm)
Re: [ckrm-tech] [PATCH 0/2] resource control file system - a..., Srivatsa Vaddagiri, (Mon Mar 12, 10:11 am)
Re: [PATCH 0/2] resource control file system - aka container..., Srivatsa Vaddagiri, (Thu Mar 8, 7:39 am)
Re: [ckrm-tech] [PATCH 0/2] resource control file system - a..., Srivatsa Vaddagiri, (Wed Mar 7, 1:52 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/2] resource control file system - aka container..., Srivatsa Vaddagiri, (Wed Mar 7, 1:32 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/2] resource control file system - aka container..., Srivatsa Vaddagiri, (Sat Mar 3, 5:36 am)
Re: [ckrm-tech] [PATCH 0/2] resource control file system - a..., Srivatsa Vaddagiri, (Mon Mar 5, 1:34 pm)
Re: [ckrm-tech] [PATCH 0/2] resource control file system - a..., Srivatsa Vaddagiri, (Tue Mar 6, 6:39 am)
Re: [ckrm-tech] [PATCH 0/2] resource control file system - a..., Srivatsa Vaddagiri, (Tue Mar 6, 12:21 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/2] resource control file system - aka container..., Srivatsa Vaddagiri, (Mon Mar 5, 1:02 pm)
Re: [PATCH 0/2] resource control file system - aka container..., Srivatsa Vaddagiri, (Mon Mar 5, 1:47 pm)
[PATCH 2/2] cpu_accounting controller, Srivatsa Vaddagiri, (Thu Mar 1, 9:50 am)
[PATCH 1/2] rcfs core patch, Srivatsa Vaddagiri, (Thu Mar 1, 9:45 am)
Re: [PATCH 1/2] rcfs core patch, Eric W. Biederman, (Wed Mar 7, 11:12 pm)
Re: [PATCH 1/2] rcfs core patch, Srivatsa Vaddagiri, (Thu Mar 8, 6:13 am)
Re: [PATCH 1/2] rcfs core patch, Serge E. Hallyn, (Fri Mar 9, 12:16 pm)
Re: [PATCH 1/2] rcfs core patch, Herbert Poetzl, (Thu Mar 8, 8:48 pm)
Re: [PATCH 1/2] rcfs core patch, Srivatsa Vaddagiri, (Fri Mar 9, 2:14 pm)
Re: [PATCH 1/2] rcfs core patch, Herbert Poetzl, (Fri Mar 9, 8:56 pm)
Re: [PATCH 1/2] rcfs core patch, Paul Jackson, (Fri Mar 9, 3:25 pm)
Re: [PATCH 1/2] rcfs core patch, Herbert Poetzl, (Fri Mar 9, 9:00 pm)
Re: [PATCH 1/2] rcfs core patch, Paul Jackson, (Fri Mar 9, 9:31 pm)
Re: [PATCH 1/2] rcfs core patch, Kirill Korotaev, (Fri Mar 9, 5:23 am)
Re: [PATCH 1/2] rcfs core patch, Herbert Poetzl, (Fri Mar 9, 9:21 am)
Re: [PATCH 1/2] rcfs core patch, Kirill Korotaev, (Sun Mar 11, 1:09 pm)
Re: [PATCH 1/2] rcfs core patch, Herbert Poetzl, (Mon Mar 12, 7:00 pm)
Re: [PATCH 1/2] rcfs core patch, Kirill Korotaev, (Tue Mar 13, 4:28 am)
Re: [PATCH 1/2] rcfs core patch, Herbert Poetzl, (Tue Mar 13, 9:55 am)
Re: [ckrm-tech] [PATCH 1/2] rcfs core patch, Srivatsa Vaddagiri, (Tue Mar 13, 10:11 am)
Re: [ckrm-tech] [PATCH 1/2] rcfs core patch, Herbert Poetzl, (Tue Mar 13, 11:52 am)
Re: [PATCH 1/2] rcfs core patch, Paul Jackson, (Fri Mar 9, 5:38 am)
Re: [PATCH 1/2] rcfs core patch, Paul Jackson, (Thu Mar 8, 10:35 pm)
Re: [PATCH 1/2] rcfs core patch, Paul Menage, (Thu Mar 8, 5:10 am)
Re: [PATCH 1/2] rcfs core patch, Herbert Poetzl, (Thu Mar 8, 8:38 pm)
Re: [PATCH 1/2] rcfs core patch, Srivatsa Vaddagiri, (Fri Mar 9, 1:57 pm)
Re: [PATCH 1/2] rcfs core patch, Herbert Poetzl, (Fri Mar 9, 9:19 pm)
Re: [PATCH 1/2] rcfs core patch, Serge E. Hallyn, (Sun Mar 11, 12:36 pm)
Re: [PATCH 1/2] rcfs core patch, Herbert Poetzl, (Mon Mar 12, 7:16 pm)
Re: [PATCH 1/2] rcfs core patch, Kirill Korotaev, (Fri Mar 9, 5:07 am)
Re: [PATCH 1/2] rcfs core patch, Herbert Poetzl, (Fri Mar 9, 9:29 am)
Re: [ckrm-tech] [PATCH 1/2] rcfs core patch, Balbir Singh, (Fri Mar 2, 1:06 am)
Re: [ckrm-tech] [PATCH 1/2] rcfs core patch, Srivatsa Vaddagiri, (Sat Mar 3, 5:38 am)
Re: [PATCH 1/2] rcfs core patch, Serge E. Hallyn, (Thu Mar 1, 12:31 pm)
Re: [PATCH 1/2] rcfs core patch, Srivatsa Vaddagiri, (Thu Mar 1, 12:46 pm)