Re: mmap dirty limits on 32 bit kernels (Was: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs)

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To: Bron Gondwana <brong@...>
Cc: Christian Kujau <lists@...>, Andrew Morton <akpm@...>, Peter Zijlstra <peterz@...>, Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@...>, <robm@...>
Date: Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 12:32 pm

On Thu, 15 Nov 2007, Bron Gondwana wrote:

The thing to look at is "get_dirty_limits()" in mm/page-writeback.c, and 
in this particular case it's the

	unsigned long available_memory = determine_dirtyable_memory();

that's going to bite you. In particular, note the

	x -= highmem_dirtyable_memory(x);

that we do in determine_dirtyable_memory().

So in this case, if you basically remove that line, it will allow all of 
memory to be dirtied (including highmem), and then the background_ratio 
will work on the whole 6GB.

HOWEVER! It's worth noting that we also have some other old legacy cruft 
there that may interfere with your code. In particular, if you look at the 
top of "get_dirty_limits()", it *also* does a

        unmapped_ratio = 100 - ((global_page_state(NR_FILE_MAPPED) +
                                global_page_state(NR_ANON_PAGES)) * 100) /
                                        available_memory;

        dirty_ratio = vm_dirty_ratio;
        if (dirty_ratio > unmapped_ratio / 2)
                dirty_ratio = unmapped_ratio / 2;

and that whole "unmapped_ratio" comparison is probably bogus these days, 
since we now take the mapped dirty pages into account. That code harks 
back to the days before we did that, and dirty ratios only affected 
non-mapped pages.

And in particular, now that I look at it, I wonder if it can even go 
negative (because "available_memory" may be *smaller* than the 
NR_FILE_MAPPED|ANON_PAGES sum!).

We'll fix up a negative value anyway (because of the clamping of 
dirty_ratio to no less than 5), but the point is that the whole 
"unmapped_ratio" thing probably doesn't make sense any more, and may well 
make the dirty_ratio not work for you, because you may have a very small 
unmapped_ratio that effectively makes all dirty limits always clamp to a 
very small value.

So regardless, I think you may want to try the appended patch *first*.

If this patch makes a difference, please holler. I think it's the correct 
thing to do, but I'm not going to actually commit it without somebody 
saying that it makes a difference (and preferably Peter Zijlstra and 
Andrew acking it too).

Only *after* testing this change is it probably a good idea to test the 
real hack of then removing the highmem_dirtyable_memory() thing. 

Peter? Andrew?

		Linus

---
 mm/page-writeback.c |    8 --------
 1 files changed, 0 insertions(+), 8 deletions(-)

diff --git a/mm/page-writeback.c b/mm/page-writeback.c
index 81a91e6..d55cfca 100644
--- a/mm/page-writeback.c
+++ b/mm/page-writeback.c
@@ -297,20 +297,12 @@ get_dirty_limits(long *pbackground, long *pdirty, long *pbdi_dirty,
 {
 	int background_ratio;		/* Percentages */
 	int dirty_ratio;
-	int unmapped_ratio;
 	long background;
 	long dirty;
 	unsigned long available_memory = determine_dirtyable_memory();
 	struct task_struct *tsk;
 
-	unmapped_ratio = 100 - ((global_page_state(NR_FILE_MAPPED) +
-				global_page_state(NR_ANON_PAGES)) * 100) /
-					available_memory;
-
 	dirty_ratio = vm_dirty_ratio;
-	if (dirty_ratio > unmapped_ratio / 2)
-		dirty_ratio = unmapped_ratio / 2;
-
 	if (dirty_ratio < 5)
 		dirty_ratio = 5;
 
-
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Messages in current thread:
[BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Natalie Protasevich, (Tue Nov 13, 2:42 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Andrew Morton, (Tue Nov 13, 7:15 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Jiri Kosina, (Wed Nov 14, 8:46 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Bartlomiej Zolnierkiewicz..., (Tue Nov 13, 11:21 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Mark Lord, (Tue Nov 13, 9:58 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Thomas Gleixner, (Tue Nov 13, 12:07 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Mark Lord, (Tue Nov 13, 1:54 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Thomas Gleixner, (Tue Nov 13, 6:46 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Mark Lord, (Tue Nov 13, 7:37 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Mark Lord, (Tue Nov 13, 1:47 pm)
[BUG] Strange 1-second pauses during Resume-from-RAM, Mark Lord, (Thu Nov 15, 12:32 pm)
Re: [BUG] Strange 1-second pauses during Resume-from-RAM, Rafael J. Wysocki, (Thu Nov 15, 4:27 pm)
Re: [BUG] Strange 1-second pauses during Resume-from-RAM, Mike Galbraith, (Fri Nov 16, 7:53 am)
[patch] snd hda suspend latency: shorten codec read, Ingo Molnar, (Fri Nov 16, 8:58 am)
Re: [patch] snd hda suspend latency: shorten codec read, Takashi Iwai, (Fri Nov 16, 10:21 am)
Re: [patch] snd hda suspend latency: shorten codec read, Rafael J. Wysocki, (Fri Nov 16, 9:31 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Russell King, (Tue Nov 13, 2:10 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Alan Cox, (Tue Nov 13, 2:25 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Russell King, (Tue Nov 13, 6:34 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Ben Dooks, (Thu Nov 15, 4:16 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Mark Lord, (Tue Nov 13, 10:18 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Thomas Gleixner, (Tue Nov 13, 12:08 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Pavel Machek, (Wed Nov 14, 9:24 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Fabio Comolli, (Wed Nov 14, 10:14 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Russell King, (Wed Nov 14, 3:52 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Russell King, (Tue Nov 13, 2:04 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Jan Kara, (Tue Nov 13, 1:49 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Alan Cox, (Tue Nov 13, 11:36 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Jarek Poplawski, (Tue Nov 13, 7:47 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Evgeniy Polyakov, (Tue Nov 13, 7:33 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Jens Axboe, (Tue Nov 13, 7:24 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, David Miller, (Tue Nov 13, 7:39 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Andrew Morton, (Tue Nov 13, 7:49 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, David Miller, (Tue Nov 13, 7:58 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Andrew Morton, (Tue Nov 13, 8:12 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Ingo Molnar, (Tue Nov 13, 9:40 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Mark Lord, (Tue Nov 13, 10:08 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Giacomo A. Catenazzi, (Tue Nov 13, 11:24 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Ray Lee, (Tue Nov 13, 11:57 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Adrian Bunk, (Tue Nov 13, 1:01 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Romano Giannetti, (Tue Nov 13, 1:50 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Frans Pop, (Tue Nov 13, 6:03 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Benoit Boissinot, (Tue Nov 13, 11:52 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Theodore Tso, (Tue Nov 13, 1:13 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Daniel Barkalow, (Wed Nov 14, 7:23 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Theodore Tso, (Thu Nov 15, 11:30 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Daniel Barkalow, (Thu Nov 15, 12:19 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Romano Giannetti, (Fri Nov 16, 4:20 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Daniel Barkalow, (Fri Nov 16, 2:20 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Theodore Tso, (Fri Nov 16, 3:46 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Adrian Bunk, (Sat Nov 17, 8:20 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Theodore Tso, (Sun Nov 18, 2:01 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Larry Finger, (Tue Nov 13, 1:33 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Theodore Tso, (Tue Nov 13, 2:55 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Larry Finger, (Tue Nov 13, 4:07 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Adrian Bunk, (Tue Nov 13, 1:56 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Jan Evert van Grootheest, (Wed Nov 14, 12:55 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Gabriel C, (Tue Nov 13, 2:57 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Denys Vlasenko, (Tue Nov 13, 8:41 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Denys Vlasenko, (Tue Nov 13, 8:39 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Adrian Bunk, (Wed Nov 14, 3:27 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Denys Vlasenko, (Wed Nov 14, 3:46 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Kok, Auke, (Wed Nov 14, 2:27 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Matthew Wilcox, (Wed Nov 14, 9:30 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Hannes Reinecke, (Wed Nov 14, 9:35 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Denys Vlasenko, (Wed Nov 14, 5:39 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Gabriel C, (Wed Nov 14, 5:58 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Alan Cox, (Tue Nov 13, 1:30 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Ingo Molnar, (Tue Nov 13, 12:49 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Russell King, (Tue Nov 13, 3:37 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Mark Lord, (Tue Nov 13, 4:18 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Russell King, (Tue Nov 13, 7:40 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, David Miller, (Tue Nov 13, 9:56 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Jörn, (Tue Nov 13, 5:33 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Mark Lord, (Tue Nov 13, 6:29 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Andrew Morton, (Tue Nov 13, 5:56 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Jörn, (Tue Nov 13, 6:24 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Andrew Morton, (Tue Nov 13, 6:43 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Denys Vlasenko, (Tue Nov 13, 8:34 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Ingo Molnar, (Tue Nov 13, 12:46 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Mark Lord, (Tue Nov 13, 1:50 pm)
size of git repository (was Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs), Pavel Machek, (Sun Nov 18, 8:44 am)
Re: size of git repository (was Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs), Willy Tarreau, (Mon Nov 19, 12:43 am)
Re: size of git repository (was Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs), James Bottomley, (Sun Nov 18, 10:35 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Matthew Wilcox, (Tue Nov 13, 2:39 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Mark Lord, (Tue Nov 13, 2:43 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Matthew Wilcox, (Tue Nov 13, 2:49 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Mark Lord, (Tue Nov 13, 2:54 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Ingo Molnar, (Wed Nov 14, 10:30 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Larry Finger, (Wed Nov 14, 10:49 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Rafael J. Wysocki, (Tue Nov 13, 6:09 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Adrian Bunk, (Tue Nov 13, 2:12 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Mark Lord, (Tue Nov 13, 2:18 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Adrian Bunk, (Tue Nov 13, 2:36 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Mark Lord, (Tue Nov 13, 2:47 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Adrian Bunk, (Tue Nov 13, 3:04 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Mark Lord, (Tue Nov 13, 3:26 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Adrian Bunk, (Tue Nov 13, 4:00 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Mark Lord, (Tue Nov 13, 4:13 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Adrian Bunk, (Tue Nov 13, 5:20 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Alan Cox, (Tue Nov 13, 5:12 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Chuck Ebbert, (Tue Nov 13, 8:52 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Stephen Hemminger, (Tue Nov 13, 9:11 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Andrew Morton, (Tue Nov 13, 10:10 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Mark Lord, (Tue Nov 13, 3:12 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Adrian Bunk, (Tue Nov 13, 3:30 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Russell King, (Tue Nov 13, 3:46 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Adrian Bunk, (Tue Nov 13, 4:04 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, David Miller, (Tue Nov 13, 9:10 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Peter Stuge, (Tue Nov 13, 9:18 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Peter Zijlstra, (Tue Nov 13, 2:17 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Randy Dunlap, (Tue Nov 13, 12:55 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Ingo Molnar, (Wed Nov 14, 10:08 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Randy Dunlap, (Wed Nov 14, 1:38 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Ingo Molnar, (Wed Nov 14, 4:16 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Randy Dunlap, (Wed Nov 14, 4:29 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Ingo Molnar, (Wed Nov 14, 4:37 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Randy Dunlap, (Wed Nov 14, 5:05 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, J. Bruce Fields, (Wed Nov 14, 2:23 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, David Miller, (Wed Nov 14, 3:56 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Ingo Molnar, (Wed Nov 14, 4:48 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, , (Wed Nov 14, 5:05 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, James Bottomley, (Wed Nov 14, 4:09 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Ingo Molnar, (Wed Nov 14, 4:54 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, David Miller, (Tue Nov 13, 8:32 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Russell King, (Tue Nov 13, 3:32 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Adrian Bunk, (Tue Nov 13, 4:13 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Russell King, (Tue Nov 13, 7:29 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Andrew Morton, (Tue Nov 13, 7:38 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Andrew Morton, (Tue Nov 13, 4:52 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Russell King, (Tue Nov 13, 6:18 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Sam Ravnborg, (Wed Nov 14, 1:56 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Sam Ravnborg, (Wed Nov 14, 1:59 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, David Miller, (Wed Nov 14, 2:13 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Andrew Morton, (Tue Nov 13, 6:32 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Russell King, (Tue Nov 13, 7:09 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Andrew Morton, (Tue Nov 13, 7:17 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, David Miller, (Tue Nov 13, 9:55 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Russell King, (Wed Nov 14, 5:55 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, David Miller, (Wed Nov 14, 6:07 am)
Use *poof* for linux-omap (Was: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs), Tony Lindgren, (Fri Nov 16, 6:16 pm)
Re: Use *poof* for linux-omap, David Miller, (Fri Nov 16, 8:45 pm)
Re: Use *poof* for linux-omap, Tony Lindgren, (Sun Nov 18, 4:01 pm)
Re: [alsa-devel] [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Rene Herman, (Wed Nov 14, 7:46 am)
Re: [alsa-devel] [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Bron Gondwana, (Thu Nov 15, 12:16 am)
Re: [alsa-devel] [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Rene Herman, (Thu Nov 15, 1:59 am)
Re: [alsa-devel] [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Olivier Galibert, (Thu Nov 15, 9:17 am)
Re: [alsa-devel] [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Takashi Iwai, (Thu Nov 15, 5:34 am)
Re: [alsa-devel] [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Bron Gondwana, (Thu Nov 15, 8:02 am)
Re: [alsa-devel] [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Rene Herman, (Thu Nov 15, 8:26 am)
Re: [alsa-devel] [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Jörn, (Thu Nov 15, 9:00 am)
Re: [alsa-devel] [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Rene Herman, (Thu Nov 15, 10:29 am)
Re: [alsa-devel] [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, David Miller, (Wed Nov 14, 7:56 am)
Re: [alsa-devel] [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Rene Herman, (Wed Nov 14, 8:09 am)
Re: [alsa-devel] [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, David Miller, (Wed Nov 14, 8:01 am)
Moderated list (Was: Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs), Takashi Iwai, (Wed Nov 14, 4:25 am)
Re: Moderated list (Was: Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs), Rene Herman, (Wed Nov 14, 8:21 am)
Re: Moderated list (Was: Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs), Takashi Iwai, (Wed Nov 14, 5:47 am)
Re: Moderated list, David Miller, (Wed Nov 14, 7:23 pm)
Re: Moderated list, Rene Herman, (Thu Nov 15, 2:09 am)
Re: [alsa-devel] [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Rene Herman, (Wed Nov 14, 8:12 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Russell King, (Wed Nov 14, 3:44 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Andrew Morton, (Tue Nov 13, 10:27 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Russell King, (Wed Nov 14, 4:30 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, David Miller, (Tue Nov 13, 11:47 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Andrew Morton, (Tue Nov 13, 3:02 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Christian Kujau, (Tue Nov 13, 4:00 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Andrew Morton, (Tue Nov 13, 5:04 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Christian Kujau, (Tue Nov 13, 5:56 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Bron Gondwana, (Thu Nov 15, 12:07 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Nov 15, 12:24 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Bron Gondwana, (Thu Nov 15, 1:25 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Nov 15, 1:35 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Nov 15, 1:53 am)
Re: mmap dirty limits on 32 bit kernels (Was: [BUG] New Kern..., Linus Torvalds, (Thu Nov 15, 12:32 pm)
[PATCH 1/1] mm: add dirty_highmem option, Bron Gondwana, (Wed Nov 21, 11:42 pm)
Re: [PATCH 1/1] mm: add dirty_highmem option, Andrew Morton, (Tue Nov 27, 12:54 am)
Re: [PATCH 1/1] mm: add dirty_highmem option, Bron Gondwana, (Tue Nov 27, 1:24 am)
Re: [PATCH 1/1] mm: add dirty_highmem option, Andrew Morton, (Tue Nov 27, 1:53 am)
Re: [PATCH 1/1] mm: add dirty_highmem option, Linus Torvalds, (Mon Nov 26, 1:53 pm)
Re: [PATCH 1/1] mm: add dirty_highmem option, Bron Gondwana, (Mon Nov 26, 9:30 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Nick Piggin, (Tue Nov 13, 12:56 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Nov 14, 3:54 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Heikki Orsila, (Wed Nov 14, 6:22 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Nov 14, 7:05 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Adrian Bunk, (Tue Nov 13, 5:37 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, James Bottomley, (Tue Nov 13, 11:33 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Martin Bligh, (Tue Nov 13, 1:46 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Andrew Morton, (Tue Nov 13, 2:47 pm)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, David Miller, (Wed Nov 14, 1:07 am)
Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs, Randy Dunlap, (Tue Nov 13, 12:43 pm)