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Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives

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Cc: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@...>, Jamie Lokier <jamie@...>, Horst von Brand <vonbrand@...>, Adrian Bunk <bunk@...>, <viro@...>, Christoph Hellwig <hch@...>, <linux-fsdevel@...>, <linux-kernel@...>, Alexander Lyamin aka FLX <flx@...>, ReiserFS List <reiserfs-list@...>
Date: Friday, September 3, 2004 - 1:57 am

The reason for supporting transactions in the kernel is that there is a 
whole slew of security bugs that have their origins in fs semantics 
being non-transactional.  rename does not cut it as a transactions API.  
rename results in horribly performing apps that engage in contortions 
that cost a lot of programmer time to code them to stuff a transaction 
into a file that can be renamed.  Most of the time programmers who 
should use a transaction/rename are just too busy to do it, and they 
take the risk that the user will lose data and be less secure rather 
than write the code to do it right.  When they do do it, because it is 
complex code, they often screw it up.

That said, there is a whole slew of reasons for not supporting 
transactions in the kernel:

* the history of the literature stars transactional filesystems that 
paid too high a cost in performance

* isolation is very tricky to do without killing performance

* transactions which are kept open too long are a problem

* avoiding problems with locking shared data structures long enough to 
cause painful exclusion of things that should be able to run in parallel 
just fine

Reiser4, by being very modest in its ambitions, manages to not pay a 
performance cost.   We say, isolation and rollback are for user space to 
manage until we can find a clever implementation, if such an 
implementation can even be found.  Even if such an implementation can be 
found, there are plenty of cases where special case knowledge of what 
the app is doing can improve performance a lot, and thus for that app it 
will belong in user space.

All reiser4 does, is allow you to guarantee (using sys_reiser4) that a 
limited size set of fs operations will be fused into one atom together, 
and therefor will either all survive a crash or none will survive.  This 
does however meet a lot of apps needs.

Hans

David Masover wrote:


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Messages in current thread:
silent semantic changes with reiser4, Christoph Hellwig, (Tue Aug 24, 4:25 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Wed Aug 25, 3:53 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Chris Friesen, (Wed Aug 25, 4:23 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jeremy Allison, (Wed Aug 25, 4:20 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Thu Aug 26, 4:42 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Rik van Riel, (Thu Aug 26, 9:27 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Thu Aug 26, 7:53 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Markus , (Thu Aug 26, 9:56 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Paul Jackson, (Thu Aug 26, 3:58 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Christoph Hellwig, (Wed Aug 25, 4:08 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Aug 25, 4:22 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Mikulas Patocka, (Wed Aug 25, 8:18 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Aug 25, 8:27 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Mikulas Patocka, (Wed Aug 25, 8:51 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Thu Aug 26, 4:36 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jamie Lokier, (Thu Aug 26, 6:53 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Christoph Hellwig, (Thu Aug 26, 6:59 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Spam, (Thu Aug 26, 7:17 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jamie Lokier, (Thu Aug 26, 7:07 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Rik van Riel, (Wed Aug 25, 8:57 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Thu Aug 26, 4:40 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Lars Marowsky-Bree, (Thu Aug 26, 10:46 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Helge Hafting, (Thu Aug 26, 3:51 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Paul Jackson, (Thu Aug 26, 5:21 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Helge Hafting, (Fri Aug 27, 8:33 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jamie Lokier, (Thu Aug 26, 6:47 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Paul Jackson, (Thu Aug 26, 7:19 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Paul Jackson, (Thu Aug 26, 5:44 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Thu Aug 26, 4:43 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Wed Aug 25, 4:41 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Rik van Riel, (Wed Aug 25, 5:03 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Thu Aug 26, 5:00 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Markus T, (Wed Aug 25, 4:58 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Chris Mason, (Wed Aug 25, 4:51 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Michael Halcrow, (Thu Aug 26, 9:53 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Thu Aug 26, 6:26 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Matt Mackall, (Wed Aug 25, 5:52 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Aug 25, 6:21 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Christoph Hellwig, (Wed Aug 25, 4:35 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Aug 25, 5:00 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jamie Lokier, (Wed Aug 25, 8:11 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jamie Lokier, (Wed Aug 25, 9:00 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Thu Aug 26, 4:49 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Joel Becker, (Thu Aug 26, 2:35 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Markus T, (Fri Aug 27, 5:19 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Matthew Wilcox, (Fri Aug 27, 8:26 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jamie Lokier, (Thu Aug 26, 3:53 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Adrian Bunk, (Thu Aug 26, 10:05 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jamie Lokier, (Thu Aug 26, 11:02 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Horst von Brand, (Sat Aug 28, 7:14 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Christer Weinigel, (Mon Sep 6, 11:55 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Thu Sep 2, 4:38 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Mon Sep 6, 4:08 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Mon Sep 6, 8:54 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Thu Sep 2, 7:52 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Thu Sep 2, 7:41 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Thu Sep 2, 5:48 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Clemens Schwaighofer, (Mon Sep 6, 8:53 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Clemens Schwaighofer, (Mon Sep 6, 8:59 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Frank van Maarseveen, (Mon Sep 6, 9:01 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Clemens Schwaighofer, (Mon Sep 6, 9:17 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 8:08 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 9:28 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Fri Sep 3, 12:37 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Horst von Brand, (Fri Sep 3, 9:09 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Sep 2, 8:18 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 9:25 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Thu Sep 2, 6:02 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Thu Sep 2, 6:11 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Thu Sep 2, 6:26 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Mon Sep 6, 4:41 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Thu Sep 2, 6:56 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Fri Sep 3, 7:55 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Helge Hafting, (Wed Sep 8, 5:56 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Fri Sep 3, 4:50 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Fri Sep 3, 4:55 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Dr. Giovanni A. Orlando, (Mon Sep 6, 5:15 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Grzegorz Jaśkiewicz, (Mon Sep 6, 8:55 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 8:17 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Fri Sep 3, 7:45 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Fri Sep 3, 8:13 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Stephan von Krawczynski, (Sat Sep 4, 7:42 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Sat Sep 4, 2:27 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Sat Sep 4, 1:37 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 8:25 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Dave Kleikamp, (Fri Sep 3, 8:50 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Fri Sep 3, 8:25 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Wed Sep 1, 11:35 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Sep 1, 11:38 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 12:27 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Sep 2, 2:04 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Robin Rosenberg, (Thu Sep 2, 3:55 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Sep 2, 3:36 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 9:11 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Hans Reiser, (Fri Sep 3, 1:57 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Sep 2, 1:50 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Horst von Brand, (Thu Sep 2, 11:32 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Timothy Miller, (Wed Sep 15, 1:23 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Helge Hafting, (Thu Sep 16, 4:29 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Martin J. Bligh, (Thu Sep 2, 2:22 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 8:41 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 9:34 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Steve Bergman, (Thu Sep 2, 3:52 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 8:35 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Horst von Brand, (Fri Sep 3, 1:26 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Bernd Petrovitsch, (Fri Sep 3, 4:49 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Martin J. Bligh, (Thu Sep 2, 4:16 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Christer Weinigel, (Thu Sep 2, 2:38 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Brian Beattie, (Fri Sep 3, 9:16 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Sep 2, 1:43 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, John Stoffel, (Thu Sep 2, 10:24 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Horst von Brand, (Thu Sep 2, 11:40 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Helge Hafting, (Fri Sep 3, 4:30 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Oliver Neukum, (Thu Sep 2, 7:09 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 8:43 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Christoph Hellwig, (Fri Sep 3, 4:13 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Oliver Neukum, (Fri Sep 3, 4:30 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 9:39 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 9:36 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, John Stoffel, (Thu Sep 2, 10:35 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Helge Hafting, (Thu Sep 2, 5:26 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Helge Hafting, (Fri Sep 3, 4:22 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Horst von Brand, (Fri Sep 3, 1:41 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Helge Hafting, (Mon Sep 6, 9:25 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Horst von Brand, (Fri Sep 3, 10:27 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Helge Hafting, (Mon Sep 6, 9:43 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Alexander G. M. Smith, (Sat Sep 4, 9:20 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Helge Hafting, (Wed Sep 8, 5:24 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Helge Hafting, (Thu Sep 9, 7:22 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Helge Hafting, (Fri Sep 3, 4:28 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Christian Mayrhuber, (Thu Sep 2, 10:38 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Wed Sep 1, 11:46 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Timothy Miller, (Thu Sep 9, 10:13 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Fri Sep 10, 1:22 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Horst von Brand, (Fri Sep 10, 11:33 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Alexander G. M. Smith, (Fri Sep 10, 8:16 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Fri Sep 10, 12:32 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Peter Foldiak, (Fri Sep 10, 2:32 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Fri Sep 10, 2:57 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Timothy Miller, (Fri Sep 10, 11:47 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Fri Sep 10, 1:51 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Horst von Brand, (Fri Sep 10, 2:15 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Timothy Miller, (Fri Sep 10, 8:00 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Wayne Scott, (Fri Sep 10, 11:50 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Horst von Brand, (Fri Sep 10, 1:50 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Christophe Saout, (Thu Aug 26, 10:25 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jamie Lokier, (Thu Aug 26, 11:04 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Alex Zarochentsev, (Sun Aug 29, 8:34 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jamie Lokier, (Wed Sep 1, 6:05 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Shaya Potter, (Sun Aug 29, 11:52 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Nikita Danilov, (Thu Aug 26, 11:41 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Christophe Saout, (Thu Aug 26, 11:12 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jamie Lokier, (Thu Aug 26, 12:00 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Thu Aug 26, 10:17 pm)