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Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4

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Cc: Nicholas Miell <nmiell@...>, Wichert Akkerman <wichert@...>, Jeremy Allison <jra@...>, Andrew Morton <akpm@...>, Spam <spam@...>, <torvalds@...>, <reiser@...>, <hch@...>, <linux-fsdevel@...>, <linux-kernel@...>, <flx@...>, <reiserfs-list@...>
Date: Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 4:16 am

Matt Mackall wrote:

Utilities that works on files only, such as cat, should keep
working.  No problem there.  If you cat a file that also is
a directory, then the file contents is all you get - by design.

Utilities that _only_ traverse the directory tree, such as find,
should keep working too.  Perhaps with a very minor update
so they don't mistake a file-directory for a file only.  I.e.
find must recurse into anything that support directory semantics.

Something that both recurse and operate on files (cp -a, tar, grep, ...
will need minor updating.  They already knows how to handle
files and directories, now they will need an update so
they're open for objects that are both.  I.e. let grep scan the file
as usual, then recurse into its directory part in the usual way too.
Performance problems should be avoided by not supporting
directory operations on files with no directory content, which I
believe will be many of them.

The "file-as-directory" thing will not be that useful before the tools
gets these relatively simple updates.  Till then it'll be a toy, which 
shouldn't
stop it from getting into the VFS.  Updating the tools will be a task
for the file-as-dir fans.

(I don't know wether reiser4 does things this way - it is certainly
they way I would want file-as-directory though.)

Stick the file in an attachment and you get the file only. 
No problem, it is designed that way.  An app that really
wants everything in a single file should use a file structured
for that, not file-as-dir.  File-as-dir attach stuff to a file in a
more loose way.

If you want to attach the directory contents too, do what you usually do
when you want to mail someone a directory tree.  You can't stick a 
directory
in an attachment because it is not a file.  So you either attach every 
file in
the tree, or use tar.  In this case, an updated tar.

The ftp server shouldn't be a problem.  It supports both files and
directories already.  It may need a minor update in order to
not mistake directory for file or vice-versa when someone
request an operation.

ftp> get filename  #Will get you the contents of the file part only - by 
design.
ftp> cd filename    #Will change into the directory (if the file indeed 
provides one.)

Sure.  And a file with a directory support both directory and file 
operations.
You can get the stream of bytes as usual - that's the file part.  Or you
can cd into the directory as usual. There isn't much overlap between
file operations and directory operations, so there is little conflict 
the way
I see it.  Merely letting the tools know that being a file no longer rule
out the possibilities of directory operations.  Getting the VFS right
is another matter of course, but I don't worry about userland tools.

Helge Hafting
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Messages in current thread:
silent semantic changes with reiser4, Christoph Hellwig, (Tue Aug 24, 4:25 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Wed Aug 25, 3:53 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Chris Friesen, (Wed Aug 25, 4:23 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jeremy Allison, (Wed Aug 25, 4:20 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Thu Aug 26, 4:42 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Rik van Riel, (Thu Aug 26, 9:27 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Thu Aug 26, 7:53 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Markus , (Thu Aug 26, 9:56 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Paul Jackson, (Thu Aug 26, 3:58 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Christoph Hellwig, (Wed Aug 25, 4:08 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Aug 25, 4:22 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Mikulas Patocka, (Wed Aug 25, 8:18 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Aug 25, 8:27 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Mikulas Patocka, (Wed Aug 25, 8:51 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Thu Aug 26, 4:36 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jamie Lokier, (Thu Aug 26, 6:53 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Christoph Hellwig, (Thu Aug 26, 6:59 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Spam, (Thu Aug 26, 7:17 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jamie Lokier, (Thu Aug 26, 7:07 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Rik van Riel, (Wed Aug 25, 8:57 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Thu Aug 26, 4:40 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Lars Marowsky-Bree, (Thu Aug 26, 10:46 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Helge Hafting, (Thu Aug 26, 3:51 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Paul Jackson, (Thu Aug 26, 5:21 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Helge Hafting, (Fri Aug 27, 8:33 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jamie Lokier, (Thu Aug 26, 6:47 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Paul Jackson, (Thu Aug 26, 7:19 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Paul Jackson, (Thu Aug 26, 5:44 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Thu Aug 26, 4:43 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Wed Aug 25, 4:41 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Rik van Riel, (Wed Aug 25, 5:03 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Thu Aug 26, 5:00 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Markus T, (Wed Aug 25, 4:58 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Chris Mason, (Wed Aug 25, 4:51 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Michael Halcrow, (Thu Aug 26, 9:53 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Thu Aug 26, 6:26 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Matt Mackall, (Wed Aug 25, 5:52 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Aug 25, 6:21 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Christoph Hellwig, (Wed Aug 25, 4:35 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Aug 25, 5:00 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jamie Lokier, (Wed Aug 25, 8:11 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jamie Lokier, (Wed Aug 25, 9:00 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Thu Aug 26, 4:49 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Joel Becker, (Thu Aug 26, 2:35 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Markus T, (Fri Aug 27, 5:19 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Matthew Wilcox, (Fri Aug 27, 8:26 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jamie Lokier, (Thu Aug 26, 3:53 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Adrian Bunk, (Thu Aug 26, 10:05 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jamie Lokier, (Thu Aug 26, 11:02 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Horst von Brand, (Sat Aug 28, 7:14 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Christer Weinigel, (Mon Sep 6, 11:55 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Thu Sep 2, 4:38 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Mon Sep 6, 4:08 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Mon Sep 6, 8:54 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Thu Sep 2, 7:52 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Thu Sep 2, 7:41 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Thu Sep 2, 5:48 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Clemens Schwaighofer, (Mon Sep 6, 8:53 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Clemens Schwaighofer, (Mon Sep 6, 8:59 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Frank van Maarseveen, (Mon Sep 6, 9:01 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Clemens Schwaighofer, (Mon Sep 6, 9:17 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 8:08 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 9:28 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Fri Sep 3, 12:37 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Horst von Brand, (Fri Sep 3, 9:09 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Sep 2, 8:18 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 9:25 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Thu Sep 2, 6:02 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Thu Sep 2, 6:11 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Thu Sep 2, 6:26 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Mon Sep 6, 4:41 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Thu Sep 2, 6:56 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Fri Sep 3, 7:55 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Helge Hafting, (Wed Sep 8, 5:56 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Fri Sep 3, 4:50 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Fri Sep 3, 4:55 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Dr. Giovanni A. Orlando, (Mon Sep 6, 5:15 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Grzegorz Jaśkiewicz, (Mon Sep 6, 8:55 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 8:17 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Fri Sep 3, 7:45 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Fri Sep 3, 8:13 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Stephan von Krawczynski, (Sat Sep 4, 7:42 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Sat Sep 4, 2:27 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Sat Sep 4, 1:37 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 8:25 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Dave Kleikamp, (Fri Sep 3, 8:50 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Fri Sep 3, 8:25 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Wed Sep 1, 11:35 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Sep 1, 11:38 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 12:27 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Sep 2, 2:04 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Robin Rosenberg, (Thu Sep 2, 3:55 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Sep 2, 3:36 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 9:11 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Sep 2, 1:50 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Horst von Brand, (Thu Sep 2, 11:32 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Timothy Miller, (Wed Sep 15, 1:23 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Helge Hafting, (Thu Sep 16, 4:29 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Martin J. Bligh, (Thu Sep 2, 2:22 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 8:41 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 9:34 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Steve Bergman, (Thu Sep 2, 3:52 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 8:35 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Horst von Brand, (Fri Sep 3, 1:26 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Bernd Petrovitsch, (Fri Sep 3, 4:49 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Martin J. Bligh, (Thu Sep 2, 4:16 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Christer Weinigel, (Thu Sep 2, 2:38 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Brian Beattie, (Fri Sep 3, 9:16 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Sep 2, 1:43 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, John Stoffel, (Thu Sep 2, 10:24 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Horst von Brand, (Thu Sep 2, 11:40 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Helge Hafting, (Fri Sep 3, 4:30 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Oliver Neukum, (Thu Sep 2, 7:09 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 8:43 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Christoph Hellwig, (Fri Sep 3, 4:13 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Oliver Neukum, (Fri Sep 3, 4:30 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 9:39 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 9:36 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, John Stoffel, (Thu Sep 2, 10:35 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Helge Hafting, (Thu Sep 2, 5:26 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Helge Hafting, (Fri Sep 3, 4:22 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Horst von Brand, (Fri Sep 3, 1:41 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Helge Hafting, (Mon Sep 6, 9:25 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Horst von Brand, (Fri Sep 3, 10:27 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Helge Hafting, (Mon Sep 6, 9:43 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Alexander G. M. Smith, (Sat Sep 4, 9:20 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Helge Hafting, (Wed Sep 8, 5:24 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Helge Hafting, (Thu Sep 9, 7:22 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Helge Hafting, (Fri Sep 3, 4:28 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Christian Mayrhuber, (Thu Sep 2, 10:38 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Wed Sep 1, 11:46 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Timothy Miller, (Thu Sep 9, 10:13 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Fri Sep 10, 1:22 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Horst von Brand, (Fri Sep 10, 11:33 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Alexander G. M. Smith, (Fri Sep 10, 8:16 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Fri Sep 10, 12:32 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Peter Foldiak, (Fri Sep 10, 2:32 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Fri Sep 10, 2:57 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Timothy Miller, (Fri Sep 10, 11:47 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Fri Sep 10, 1:51 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Horst von Brand, (Fri Sep 10, 2:15 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Timothy Miller, (Fri Sep 10, 8:00 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Wayne Scott, (Fri Sep 10, 11:50 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Horst von Brand, (Fri Sep 10, 1:50 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Christophe Saout, (Thu Aug 26, 10:25 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jamie Lokier, (Thu Aug 26, 11:04 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Alex Zarochentsev, (Sun Aug 29, 8:34 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jamie Lokier, (Wed Sep 1, 6:05 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Shaya Potter, (Sun Aug 29, 11:52 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Nikita Danilov, (Thu Aug 26, 11:41 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Christophe Saout, (Thu Aug 26, 11:12 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jamie Lokier, (Thu Aug 26, 12:00 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Thu Aug 26, 10:17 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Matthew Wilcox, (Thu Aug 26, 10:45 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Chris Wedgwood, (Thu Aug 26,