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Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4

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Cc: <riel@...>, <mikulas@...>, <torvalds@...>, <hch@...>, <reiser@...>, <linux-fsdevel@...>, <linux-kernel@...>, <flx@...>, <reiserfs-list@...>
Date: Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 5:21 am

Helge wrote:

There are many backup apps, not just one.  I've written a few myself,
none of which will ever be worthy of notice.  The sourceforge
Topic.System.Archiving.Backup lists 335 projects at present.

I find the idea that most backup tools and scripts will silently
stop working correctly to be pretty scary.  

And then there's archiving, installation, distribution, administration,
emulation, file system and partition managers, and on and on.

===

I wonder if we can make this "modal" somehow.

The one consistency I see is that apps that want the "enhanced" view
need to ask for it, somehow.  It is the new views of the data that are
being added - let the app announce to the kernel (usually via
specialized code in some shared library that the app is using to get the
alternate views) that either per-task, or per-file descriptor, it is to
see the "enhanced" view, as a side affect of trying to access it.

Old stuff, or even new stuff that is content to work with the "classic"
view that a file is a single data stream, and that directories only
have pathnames, not data, would by default see that view, and see
_all_ the data, presented somehow in that view, perhaps as additional
files with magic names.

This still leaves the breakage that such tools don't know, and don't
preserve, the magic linkage between such magic files.  But that is
much less of an issue, in my view.  Programs such as backups that are
manipulating the files of apps they know nothing about already have
to presume that all the files are important in inscrutable ways, and
just be careful to preserve or copy or backup all of them.

Yeah - I realize that there will be a few followups denouncing modal
architectures.  I might even agree with some of them.

If this were easy, it would have been done years ago.

The onus should be on the new stuff to request the enhanced view,
rather than on the old dogs to learn new tricks.

-- 
                          I won't rest till it's the best ...
                          Programmer, Linux Scalability
                          Paul Jackson <pj@sgi.com> 1.650.933.1373
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Messages in current thread:
silent semantic changes with reiser4, Christoph Hellwig, (Tue Aug 24, 4:25 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Wed Aug 25, 3:53 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Chris Friesen, (Wed Aug 25, 4:23 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jeremy Allison, (Wed Aug 25, 4:20 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Thu Aug 26, 4:42 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Rik van Riel, (Thu Aug 26, 9:27 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Thu Aug 26, 7:53 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Markus , (Thu Aug 26, 9:56 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Paul Jackson, (Thu Aug 26, 3:58 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Christoph Hellwig, (Wed Aug 25, 4:08 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Aug 25, 4:22 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Mikulas Patocka, (Wed Aug 25, 8:18 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Aug 25, 8:27 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Mikulas Patocka, (Wed Aug 25, 8:51 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Thu Aug 26, 4:36 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jamie Lokier, (Thu Aug 26, 6:53 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Christoph Hellwig, (Thu Aug 26, 6:59 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Spam, (Thu Aug 26, 7:17 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jamie Lokier, (Thu Aug 26, 7:07 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Rik van Riel, (Wed Aug 25, 8:57 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Thu Aug 26, 4:40 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Lars Marowsky-Bree, (Thu Aug 26, 10:46 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Helge Hafting, (Thu Aug 26, 3:51 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Paul Jackson, (Thu Aug 26, 5:21 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Helge Hafting, (Fri Aug 27, 8:33 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jamie Lokier, (Thu Aug 26, 6:47 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Paul Jackson, (Thu Aug 26, 7:19 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Paul Jackson, (Thu Aug 26, 5:44 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Thu Aug 26, 4:43 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Wed Aug 25, 4:41 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Rik van Riel, (Wed Aug 25, 5:03 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Thu Aug 26, 5:00 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Markus T, (Wed Aug 25, 4:58 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Chris Mason, (Wed Aug 25, 4:51 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Michael Halcrow, (Thu Aug 26, 9:53 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Thu Aug 26, 6:26 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Matt Mackall, (Wed Aug 25, 5:52 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Aug 25, 6:21 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Christoph Hellwig, (Wed Aug 25, 4:35 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Aug 25, 5:00 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jamie Lokier, (Wed Aug 25, 8:11 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jamie Lokier, (Wed Aug 25, 9:00 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Thu Aug 26, 4:49 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Joel Becker, (Thu Aug 26, 2:35 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Markus T, (Fri Aug 27, 5:19 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Matthew Wilcox, (Fri Aug 27, 8:26 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jamie Lokier, (Thu Aug 26, 3:53 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Adrian Bunk, (Thu Aug 26, 10:05 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jamie Lokier, (Thu Aug 26, 11:02 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Horst von Brand, (Sat Aug 28, 7:14 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Christer Weinigel, (Mon Sep 6, 11:55 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Thu Sep 2, 4:38 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Mon Sep 6, 4:08 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Mon Sep 6, 8:54 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Thu Sep 2, 7:52 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Thu Sep 2, 7:41 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Thu Sep 2, 5:48 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Clemens Schwaighofer, (Mon Sep 6, 8:53 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Clemens Schwaighofer, (Mon Sep 6, 8:59 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Frank van Maarseveen, (Mon Sep 6, 9:01 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Clemens Schwaighofer, (Mon Sep 6, 9:17 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 8:08 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 9:28 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Fri Sep 3, 12:37 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Horst von Brand, (Fri Sep 3, 9:09 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Sep 2, 8:18 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 9:25 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Thu Sep 2, 6:02 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Thu Sep 2, 6:11 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Thu Sep 2, 6:26 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Mon Sep 6, 4:41 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Thu Sep 2, 6:56 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Fri Sep 3, 7:55 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Helge Hafting, (Wed Sep 8, 5:56 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Fri Sep 3, 4:50 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Fri Sep 3, 4:55 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Dr. Giovanni A. Orlando, (Mon Sep 6, 5:15 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Grzegorz Jaśkiewicz, (Mon Sep 6, 8:55 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 8:17 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Fri Sep 3, 7:45 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Fri Sep 3, 8:13 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Stephan von Krawczynski, (Sat Sep 4, 7:42 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Sat Sep 4, 2:27 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Sat Sep 4, 1:37 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 8:25 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Dave Kleikamp, (Fri Sep 3, 8:50 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Fri Sep 3, 8:25 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Wed Sep 1, 11:35 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Sep 1, 11:38 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 12:27 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Sep 2, 2:04 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Robin Rosenberg, (Thu Sep 2, 3:55 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Sep 2, 3:36 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 9:11 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Sep 2, 1:50 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Horst von Brand, (Thu Sep 2, 11:32 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Timothy Miller, (Wed Sep 15, 1:23 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Helge Hafting, (Thu Sep 16, 4:29 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Martin J. Bligh, (Thu Sep 2, 2:22 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 8:41 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 9:34 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Steve Bergman, (Thu Sep 2, 3:52 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 8:35 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Horst von Brand, (Fri Sep 3, 1:26 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Bernd Petrovitsch, (Fri Sep 3, 4:49 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Martin J. Bligh, (Thu Sep 2, 4:16 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Christer Weinigel, (Thu Sep 2, 2:38 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Brian Beattie, (Fri Sep 3, 9:16 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Sep 2, 1:43 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, John Stoffel, (Thu Sep 2, 10:24 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Horst von Brand, (Thu Sep 2, 11:40 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Helge Hafting, (Fri Sep 3, 4:30 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Oliver Neukum, (Thu Sep 2, 7:09 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 8:43 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Christoph Hellwig, (Fri Sep 3, 4:13 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Oliver Neukum, (Fri Sep 3, 4:30 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 9:39 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 9:36 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, John Stoffel, (Thu Sep 2, 10:35 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Helge Hafting, (Thu Sep 2, 5:26 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Helge Hafting, (Fri Sep 3, 4:22 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Horst von Brand, (Fri Sep 3, 1:41 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Helge Hafting, (Mon Sep 6, 9:25 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Horst von Brand, (Fri Sep 3, 10:27 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Helge Hafting, (Mon Sep 6, 9:43 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Alexander G. M. Smith, (Sat Sep 4, 9:20 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Helge Hafting, (Wed Sep 8, 5:24 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Helge Hafting, (Thu Sep 9, 7:22 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Helge Hafting, (Fri Sep 3, 4:28 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Christian Mayrhuber, (Thu Sep 2, 10:38 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Wed Sep 1, 11:46 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Timothy Miller, (Thu Sep 9, 10:13 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Fri Sep 10, 1:22 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Horst von Brand, (Fri Sep 10, 11:33 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Alexander G. M. Smith, (Fri Sep 10, 8:16 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Fri Sep 10, 12:32 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Peter Foldiak, (Fri Sep 10, 2:32 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Fri Sep 10, 2:57 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Timothy Miller, (Fri Sep 10, 11:47 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Fri Sep 10, 1:51 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Horst von Brand, (Fri Sep 10, 2:15 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Timothy Miller, (Fri Sep 10, 8:00 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Wayne Scott, (Fri Sep 10, 11:50 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Horst von Brand, (Fri Sep 10, 1:50 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Christophe Saout, (Thu Aug 26, 10:25 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jamie Lokier, (Thu Aug 26, 11:04 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Alex Zarochentsev, (Sun Aug 29, 8:34 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jamie Lokier, (Wed Sep 1, 6:05 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Shaya Potter, (Sun Aug 29, 11:52 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Nikita Danilov, (Thu Aug 26, 11:41 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Christophe Saout, (Thu Aug 26, 11:12 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jamie Lokier, (Thu Aug 26, 12:00 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Thu Aug 26, 10:17 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Matthew Wilcox, (Thu Aug 26, 10:45 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Chris Wedgwood, (Thu Aug 26, 6:05 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Pavel Machek, (Fri Aug 27, 5:01 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jamie Lokier, (Thu Aug 26, 7:02 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Will Dyson, (Thu Aug 26, 11:50 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Lee Revell, (Thu Aug 26, 4:38 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jamie Lokier, (Thu Aug 26, 5:00 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Christophe Saout, (Thu Aug 26, 4:50 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Lee Revell, (Thu Aug 26, 4:57 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Markus T, (Fri Aug 27, 5:21 am)