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Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4

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Cc: Hans Reiser <reiser@...>, <viro@...>, Linus Torvalds <torvalds@...>, Christoph Hellwig <hch@...>, <linux-fsdevel@...>, <linux-kernel@...>, Alexander Lyamin aka FLX <flx@...>, ReiserFS List <reiserfs-list@...>
Date: Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 11:02 am

Adrian Bunk wrote:

It should be a generic VFS plugin, not reiser4 or userspace.  The VFS
plugin should call out to userspace for most actions (except handling
cached data), and it should take advantage of special reiser4 features
for storage and performance optimisations.  But it should still work
over a standard filesystem, when those special features aren't
available.  I guess FUSE and many earlier projects are heading in this
direction.

A generic userspace solution doesn't let you "cd" into a tar file from
all programs like you can inside Midnight Commander.

Gnome and KDE take the approach that every userspace system call
should be intercepted and filtered, to create the illusion of virtual
data.  As a result, different programs see different virtual data: you
can't just cut and paste a path from Gnome or KDE into any other
program.  It's not just a "social problem of libraries" thing:
sometimes I have programs which don't link to libc.  Sometimes I have
programs which mustn't link with anything that calls malloc().  It'd
be silly for them to have a different view of the filesystem just
because they can't link with some userspace library.

The Gnome/KDE/Midnight Commander pure userspace solution is silly: if
_every_ program in the system should get the same view, it makes much
more sense for the kernel to filter the system calls and redirect the
virtual accesses to a userspace daemon, while keeping the real
accesses at full speed.

Furthermore is makes much more sense for the kernel's page cache to
hold those uncompressed pages, than for every userspace application to
try and cooperatively manage a cache of uncompressed fragments in the
most inefficient way.

There's another problem with the Midnight Commander approach.  If I
"cd" into a tar file, and then a program writes to the tar file, I
don't always see the changes straight away. The two views aren't
coherent.  This isn't an easy problem to solve, but it should be
solved.

When a simple "cd" into .tar.gz or .iso is implemented properly, it
will have _no_ performance penalty after you have first looked in the
file, so long as it remains in the on-disk cache.  And, the filesystem
will manage that cache intelligently.

Imagine: for looking at source files and such, you probably won't
bother untarring in future, and you won't bother keeping untarred
source trees in your home directory for easy access to things you look
at often.  Why waste the space?  You could install whole applications
as a .tar and run them from within it, with no performance penalty.

Similarly, the filesystem will be able to archive directories
automatically that haven't been touched in a long time, with no
visible change except increased storage space.  "grep" will be a bit
slower, but you'll have a useful search tool by then (using coherent
indexes) which will be more useful than grep, and much faster.

-- Jamie
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Messages in current thread:
silent semantic changes with reiser4, Christoph Hellwig, (Tue Aug 24, 4:25 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Wed Aug 25, 3:53 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Chris Friesen, (Wed Aug 25, 4:23 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jeremy Allison, (Wed Aug 25, 4:20 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Thu Aug 26, 4:42 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Rik van Riel, (Thu Aug 26, 9:27 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Thu Aug 26, 7:53 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Markus , (Thu Aug 26, 9:56 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Paul Jackson, (Thu Aug 26, 3:58 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Christoph Hellwig, (Wed Aug 25, 4:08 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Aug 25, 4:22 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Mikulas Patocka, (Wed Aug 25, 8:18 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Aug 25, 8:27 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Mikulas Patocka, (Wed Aug 25, 8:51 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Thu Aug 26, 4:36 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jamie Lokier, (Thu Aug 26, 6:53 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Christoph Hellwig, (Thu Aug 26, 6:59 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Spam, (Thu Aug 26, 7:17 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jamie Lokier, (Thu Aug 26, 7:07 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Rik van Riel, (Wed Aug 25, 8:57 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Thu Aug 26, 4:40 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Lars Marowsky-Bree, (Thu Aug 26, 10:46 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Helge Hafting, (Thu Aug 26, 3:51 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Paul Jackson, (Thu Aug 26, 5:21 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Helge Hafting, (Fri Aug 27, 8:33 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jamie Lokier, (Thu Aug 26, 6:47 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Paul Jackson, (Thu Aug 26, 7:19 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Paul Jackson, (Thu Aug 26, 5:44 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Thu Aug 26, 4:43 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Wed Aug 25, 4:41 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Rik van Riel, (Wed Aug 25, 5:03 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Thu Aug 26, 5:00 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Markus T, (Wed Aug 25, 4:58 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Chris Mason, (Wed Aug 25, 4:51 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Michael Halcrow, (Thu Aug 26, 9:53 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Thu Aug 26, 6:26 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Matt Mackall, (Wed Aug 25, 5:52 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Aug 25, 6:21 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Christoph Hellwig, (Wed Aug 25, 4:35 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Aug 25, 5:00 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jamie Lokier, (Wed Aug 25, 8:11 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jamie Lokier, (Wed Aug 25, 9:00 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Thu Aug 26, 4:49 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Joel Becker, (Thu Aug 26, 2:35 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Markus T, (Fri Aug 27, 5:19 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Matthew Wilcox, (Fri Aug 27, 8:26 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jamie Lokier, (Thu Aug 26, 3:53 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Adrian Bunk, (Thu Aug 26, 10:05 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jamie Lokier, (Thu Aug 26, 11:02 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Horst von Brand, (Sat Aug 28, 7:14 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Christer Weinigel, (Mon Sep 6, 11:55 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Thu Sep 2, 4:38 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Mon Sep 6, 4:08 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Mon Sep 6, 8:54 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Thu Sep 2, 7:52 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Thu Sep 2, 7:41 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Thu Sep 2, 5:48 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Clemens Schwaighofer, (Mon Sep 6, 8:53 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Clemens Schwaighofer, (Mon Sep 6, 8:59 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Frank van Maarseveen, (Mon Sep 6, 9:01 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Clemens Schwaighofer, (Mon Sep 6, 9:17 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 8:08 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 9:28 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Fri Sep 3, 12:37 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Horst von Brand, (Fri Sep 3, 9:09 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Sep 2, 8:18 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 9:25 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Thu Sep 2, 6:02 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Thu Sep 2, 6:11 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Thu Sep 2, 6:26 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Mon Sep 6, 4:41 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Thu Sep 2, 6:56 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Fri Sep 3, 7:55 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Helge Hafting, (Wed Sep 8, 5:56 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Fri Sep 3, 4:50 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives (was..., Frank van Maarseveen, (Fri Sep 3, 4:55 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Dr. Giovanni A. Orlando, (Mon Sep 6, 5:15 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Grzegorz Jaśkiewicz, (Mon Sep 6, 8:55 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 8:17 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Fri Sep 3, 7:45 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Fri Sep 3, 8:13 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Stephan von Krawczynski, (Sat Sep 4, 7:42 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Sat Sep 4, 2:27 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Sat Sep 4, 1:37 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 8:25 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Dave Kleikamp, (Fri Sep 3, 8:50 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Fri Sep 3, 8:25 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Wed Sep 1, 11:35 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Sep 1, 11:38 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 12:27 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Sep 2, 2:04 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Robin Rosenberg, (Thu Sep 2, 3:55 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Sep 2, 3:36 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 9:11 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Sep 2, 1:50 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Horst von Brand, (Thu Sep 2, 11:32 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Timothy Miller, (Wed Sep 15, 1:23 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Helge Hafting, (Thu Sep 16, 4:29 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Martin J. Bligh, (Thu Sep 2, 2:22 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 8:41 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 9:34 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Steve Bergman, (Thu Sep 2, 3:52 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 8:35 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Horst von Brand, (Fri Sep 3, 1:26 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Bernd Petrovitsch, (Fri Sep 3, 4:49 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Martin J. Bligh, (Thu Sep 2, 4:16 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Christer Weinigel, (Thu Sep 2, 2:38 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Brian Beattie, (Fri Sep 3, 9:16 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Sep 2, 1:43 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, John Stoffel, (Thu Sep 2, 10:24 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Horst von Brand, (Thu Sep 2, 11:40 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Helge Hafting, (Fri Sep 3, 4:30 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Oliver Neukum, (Thu Sep 2, 7:09 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 8:43 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Christoph Hellwig, (Fri Sep 3, 4:13 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Oliver Neukum, (Fri Sep 3, 4:30 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 9:39 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Thu Sep 2, 9:36 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, John Stoffel, (Thu Sep 2, 10:35 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Helge Hafting, (Thu Sep 2, 5:26 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Helge Hafting, (Fri Sep 3, 4:22 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Horst von Brand, (Fri Sep 3, 1:41 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Helge Hafting, (Mon Sep 6, 9:25 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Horst von Brand, (Fri Sep 3, 10:27 pm)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Helge Hafting, (Mon Sep 6, 9:43 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Alexander G. M. Smith, (Sat Sep 4, 9:20 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Helge Hafting, (Wed Sep 8, 5:24 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Helge Hafting, (Thu Sep 9, 7:22 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Helge Hafting, (Fri Sep 3, 4:28 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, Christian Mayrhuber, (Thu Sep 2, 10:38 am)
Re: The argument for fs assistance in handling archives, David Masover, (Wed Sep 1, 11:46 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Timothy Miller, (Thu Sep 9, 10:13 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Fri Sep 10, 1:22 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Horst von Brand, (Fri Sep 10, 11:33 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Alexander G. M. Smith, (Fri Sep 10, 8:16 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Fri Sep 10, 12:32 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Peter Foldiak, (Fri Sep 10, 2:32 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Fri Sep 10, 2:57 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Timothy Miller, (Fri Sep 10, 11:47 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Fri Sep 10, 1:51 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Horst von Brand, (Fri Sep 10, 2:15 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Timothy Miller, (Fri Sep 10, 8:00 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Wayne Scott, (Fri Sep 10, 11:50 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Horst von Brand, (Fri Sep 10, 1:50 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Christophe Saout, (Thu Aug 26, 10:25 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jamie Lokier, (Thu Aug 26, 11:04 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Alex Zarochentsev, (Sun Aug 29, 8:34 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jamie Lokier, (Wed Sep 1, 6:05 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Shaya Potter, (Sun Aug 29, 11:52 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Nikita Danilov, (Thu Aug 26, 11:41 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Christophe Saout, (Thu Aug 26, 11:12 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jamie Lokier, (Thu Aug 26, 12:00 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Hans Reiser, (Thu Aug 26, 10:17 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Matthew Wilcox, (Thu Aug 26, 10:45 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Chris Wedgwood, (Thu Aug 26, 6:05 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Pavel Machek, (Fri Aug 27, 5:01 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jamie Lokier, (Thu Aug 26, 7:02 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Will Dyson, (Thu Aug 26, 11:50 am)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Lee Revell, (Thu Aug 26, 4:38 pm)
Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4, Jamie Lokier, (Thu Aug 26, 5:00 pm)