I hope you don't mind that I'm redirecting this back onto the list.

On Jan 23, 2008, at 6:17 PM, Jay Soffian wrote:

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> On 1/23/08, Kevin Ballard <kevin@sb.org> wrote:
>
>> I agree - the argument is fairly worthless. So why does everybody  
>> else
>> keep spending time accusing HFS+ of corrupting filenames? Most of
>> Linus's email was specifically about this point, but apparently  
>> that's
>> alright with you while only a *single* line out of my email in direct
>> response is called trolling?
>
> Everyone else considers what HFS+ does as corruption. You, alone in
> this thread, do not. You are not willing to concede the point, nor let
> it go. I'm accusing you of trolling because you are the single person
> defending HFS+'s behavior.

I don't understand how you can possibly think that disagreeing ==  
trolling. Similarly, just because I'm the only person *on this list*  
who holds my viewpoint doesn't in any way mean I should abandon it. In  
fact, it makes it much more important that I continue to stand up for  
what I believe, The whole notion of democracy is based on the fact  
that every person is important, and that every person has the right to  
their own opinion. I realize this is a mailing list, not a democratic  
body, but the same principles should still apply. If your criteria for  
judging any viewpoint is purely how many people hold that viewpoint,  
then you end up ignoring things just because they are different or new.

I may be the single person defending this behavior on this list, but  
if you were to leave your comfortable linux community and talk to  
people elsewhere, you might find yourself in the minority opinion.

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> (Also, while it's certainly possible that you are right and everyone
> else is wrong, most of the other folks have significant experience as
> kernel, filesystem, or git developers, which leads credence to their
> point -- reputation matters.)

Why do you persist in thinking of this as right vs. wrong? I've tried  
to emphasize, many times, that HFS+ behaves this way not because it's  
"right" and ext4 is "wrong", but because HFS+ has a different set of  
values. The developers of HFS+ believed that, for a consumer OS like  
OS X, it made much more sense to treat visually indistinguishable  
filenames as the same file. I, and I'm sure the vast majority of OS X  
users, agree. Unfortunately this decision had some drawbacks, but they  
felt the trade-off was worth it. I'm well aware that you all don't  
think the trade-off was worth it, but like I said, this is a matter of  
behaving differently due to a different set of values, not behaving  
"right" or "wrong". I've been making an attempt to agree to disagree,  
but it seems that you would rather just squash dissent instead of  
accepting it.

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>> Again, you're happy to let everybody else write long paragraphs
>> accusing HFS+ of bad behavior (and making horrible assumptions which
>> are generally completely untrue), and you don't think that's noise?
>
> They are responding to you. If you let the point drop, so will they.

I did let the point drop. Then you guys resurrected it. You can't pin  
this one on me.

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>> I do ignore most of it, I'm only getting mad because a few people  
>> keep
>> telling me that I'm trolling, or being inflammatory, simply by  
>> posting
>> reasoned, factual replies, but everybody who keeps spewing insults
>> are, apparently, not a problem at all.
>
> I understand that you think your replies are reasoned and factual, but
> everyone else thinks you're wrong. They are getting frustrated
> defending a point with which you continue to disagree, hence the
> insults.

Don't you think I'm frustrated at the behavior of everyone else here?  
But you don't see me flinging insults.

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>> At first, I did. Now it's just tiresome, since he keeps calling me  
>> and
>> HFS+ dumb for the exact same reasons he did at the start of the  
>> thread
>> no matter how I respond. Apparently he's simply more interested in
>> keeping his own opinion than in the actual reasons behind HFS+'s
>> decisions. It's rather frustrating.
>
> Have you considered that maybe he's right? In any case, you're not
> going to convince Linus of anything. From what I can tell, he forms
> his opinions based on facts he collects himself and his own
> experience. I gather that anything you say he will consider, *at
> best*, as hearsay. Besides that, he's actually working to solve the
> problem, while still taking the time to respond to your points.

Collecting facts yourself is fine, but insulting anybody with a  
dissenting *opinion* simply because it's different is just plain wrong.

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> Really, please, go take a walk outside. Get some fresh air. Maybe stop
> reading the git list for a week or two. In the grand scheme of things
> it doesn't matter what git developers think of HFS+ as long as they're
> willing to make git work with it, which apparently, and in spite of
> you at this point, they are.

For the majority of this thread, nobody was making any indication that  
they cared at all about fixing this problem - that was my primary  
motivation to continue. If I had dropped this the first time someone  
told me to, do you think anybody would be working on the problem now?

As for dropping this conversation now, I'd love to. If you really want  
to drop it, I urge you to do just that - don't respond to this  
message. Read it, digest it, and then just let it sit. If this is the  
last message on the subject, that would be *wonderful*. But if you  
respond to this message then you have absolutely no ground to accuse  
me of refusing to drop it. So please, don't.

-- 
Kevin Ballard
http://kevin.sb.org
kevin@sb.org
http://www.tildesoft.com