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Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names

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From: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@...>
To: Kevin Ballard <kevin@...>
Cc: Jakub Narebski <jnareb@...>, Johannes Schindelin <Johannes.Schindelin@...>, Mark Junker <mjscod@...>, <git@...>
Subject: Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names
Date: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 9:16 pm

On Wed, 16 Jan 2008, Kevin Ballard wrote:

The thing is, you seem to argue that what OS X does helps you as the user.

But you are arguing based on incorrect assumptions.

First off, we've had years and years and years of usage of non-corrupting 
filesystems (pretty much every UNIX OS around since day 1, and many other 
OS's too), and it's simply not true that it's a problem. You see the 
filename in the file dialog, and you open it, and you're done. OS X isn't 
any "easier" in this regard.

In fact, this whole thread comes from the fact that the OS X choice that 
you *think* is easier, is in fact not easier at all. It's not easier for 
the user, it's not easier for the application programmer, and the really 
sad part is that it's very much *not* easier for OS X itself either (ie 
they had to literally write extra code with nasty tables to do it, and it 
really does hurt them in performance and complexity).

And _that_ is why the OS X situation is so sad. Apple literally added 
extra code to make things slower and more complex *and* harder to use 
reliably.

Does it show up in normal behaviour? Of course not. You'd probably never 
see it in real life outside of test-suites. People simply don't even tend 
to use filenames outside of US-ASCII, and when they do use them, input 
methods really *do* tend to do the normalization for you.

But when it comes to automation (which is what computers are all about), 
the OS X choice is literally the wrong one. And there's no _upside_. It's 
all downside. Which is why it's so stupid.

I bet it only exists because OS X engineers didn't really even think about 
it, and they just assumed that "normalization is helpful". They took your 
stance - thinking it was worth it, without ever really thinking it 
through.

			Linus
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Messages in current thread:
git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Mark Junker, (Wed Jan 16, 11:17 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Johannes Schindelin, (Wed Jan 16, 11:34 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Wed Jan 16, 11:43 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Miles Bader, (Thu Jan 17, 3:29 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Wincent Colaiuta, (Wed Jan 16, 7:03 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Johannes Schindelin, (Wed Jan 16, 12:32 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Jakub Narebski, (Wed Jan 16, 12:46 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Wed Jan 16, 4:39 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Dmitry Potapov, (Wed Jan 16, 7:52 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Jakub Narebski, (Wed Jan 16, 5:51 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Wed Jan 16, 6:06 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Johannes Schindelin, (Wed Jan 16, 6:23 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Wed Jan 16, 7:16 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Jan 16, 6:32 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Jan 16, 6:52 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Wed Jan 16, 7:11 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Jan 16, 7:38 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Pedro Melo, (Wed Jan 16, 7:57 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Jan 16, 8:16 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Peter Karlsson, (Fri Jan 18, 4:29 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Jakub Narebski, (Fri Jan 18, 7:16 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Pedro Melo, (Wed Jan 16, 8:27 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Johannes Schindelin, (Wed Jan 16, 8:35 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Pedro Melo, (Wed Jan 16, 8:45 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, David Kastrup, (Wed Jan 16, 8:32 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Pedro Melo, (Wed Jan 16, 8:40 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Wincent Colaiuta, (Wed Jan 16, 8:54 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Johannes Schindelin, (Wed Jan 16, 9:08 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Jan 16, 9:41 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Thu Jan 17, 12:07 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Wed Jan 16, 8:09 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Jan 16, 9:16 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Wed Jan 16, 11:52 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Jan 17, 12:08 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Wincent Colaiuta, (Thu Jan 17, 6:08 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Jan 17, 12:43 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, JM Ibanez, (Thu Jan 17, 6:01 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Johannes Schindelin, (Thu Jan 17, 6:09 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Robin Rosenberg, (Thu Jan 17, 9:27 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Jan 17, 7:05 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Dmitry Potapov, (Thu Jan 17, 7:10 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Mark Junker, (Thu Jan 17, 2:09 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Jan 17, 2:42 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Pedro Melo, (Thu Jan 17, 2:52 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Jan 17, 3:11 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Peter Karlsson, (Fri Jan 18, 6:19 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Fri Jan 18, 1:11 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Peter Karlsson, (Mon Jan 21, 10:14 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Mon Jan 21, 2:16 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Mon Jan 21, 12:43 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Dmitry Potapov, (Mon Jan 21, 4:30 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Mon Jan 21, 2:12 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Dmitry Potapov, (Mon Jan 21, 4:36 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Martin Langhoff, (Mon Jan 21, 5:06 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, David Kastrup, (Mon Jan 21, 5:09 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Mon Jan 21, 5:42 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Martin Langhoff, (Mon Jan 21, 6:45 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Mike Hommey, (Mon Jan 21, 3:44 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Mon Jan 21, 3:05 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Dmitry Potapov, (Mon Jan 21, 4:56 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Mon Jan 21, 5:07 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Dmitry Potapov, (Mon Jan 21, 6:41 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Mon Jan 21, 6:53 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Dmitry Potapov, (Mon Jan 21, 7:21 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Theodore Tso, (Mon Jan 21, 3:57 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Mon Jan 21, 4:01 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Theodore Tso, (Mon Jan 21, 4:15 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Mon Jan 21, 4:31 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Theodore Tso, (Mon Jan 21, 4:46 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Mon Jan 21, 4:59 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Mon Jan 21, 3:41 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Mon Jan 21, 3:58 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Mon Jan 21, 4:33 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Mon Jan 21, 4:53 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, David Kastrup, (Mon Jan 21, 4:58 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Mon Jan 21, 5:33 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Mon Jan 21, 5:49 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Mon Jan 21, 6:34 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Mon Jan 21, 6:46 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Mon Jan 21, 7:44 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Mon Jan 21, 8:47 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Mon Jan 21, 9:01 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Mon Jan 21, 9:13 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Mon Jan 21, 10:33 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Mon Jan 21, 10:50 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Mon Jan 21, 11:04 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Martin Langhoff, (Mon Jan 21, 11:21 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Tue Jan 22, 12:22 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Mon Jan 21, 11:17 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Theodore Tso, (Mon Jan 21, 7:00 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Mon Jan 21, 7:09 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Martin Langhoff, (Mon Jan 21, 6:56 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Martin Langhoff, (Mon Jan 21, 5:17 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Mon Jan 21, 5:28 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Martin Langhoff, (Mon Jan 21, 5:43 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Nicolas Pitre, (Mon Jan 21, 1:08 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, David Kastrup, (Mon Jan 21, 4:32 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Mon Jan 21, 1:25 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, David Kastrup, (Mon Jan 21, 4:35 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Jeff King, (Mon Jan 21, 12:53 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Junio C Hamano, (Fri Jan 18, 4:28 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Eric W. Biederman, (Tue Jan 22, 10:46 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Junio C Hamano, (Tue Jan 22, 10:57 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Nicolas Pitre, (Wed Jan 23, 10:26 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Junio C Hamano, (Wed Jan 23, 5:19 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Johannes Schindelin, (Fri Jan 18, 4:50 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Fri Jan 18, 4:24 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Dmitry Potapov, (Sat Jan 19, 4:48 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Sat Jan 19, 2:58 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Wincent Colaiuta, (Sat Jan 19, 8:11 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Sat Jan 19, 9:04 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Wincent Colaiuta, (Sun Jan 20, 5:34 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Mike Hommey, (Sun Jan 20, 1:27 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Sun Jan 20, 1:45 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Mike Hommey, (Sun Jan 20, 3:00 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Dmitry Potapov, (Sun Jan 20, 4:00 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Dmitry Potapov, (Sun Jan 20, 4:12 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Sun Jan 20, 3:26 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Johannes Schindelin, (Sat Jan 19, 6:58 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Dmitry Potapov, (Sun Jan 20, 2:14 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Johannes Schindelin, (Sun Jan 20, 9:15 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Sun Jan 20, 2:53 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Mark Junker, (Sat Jan 19, 4:39 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Sat Jan 19, 10:55 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Dmitry Potapov, (Sat Jan 19, 5:17 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Dmitry Potapov, (Fri Jan 18, 6:50 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Peter Karlsson, (Fri Jan 18, 11:30 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Thu Jan 17, 8:18 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Jan 17, 8:35 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Robin Rosenberg, (Thu Jan 17, 9:05 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Jan 17, 9:24 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Robin Rosenberg, (Fri Jan 18, 5:42 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Dmitry Potapov, (Fri Jan 18, 6:30 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Peter Karlsson, (Fri Jan 18, 11:37 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Dmitry Potapov, (Fri Jan 18, 4:49 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Theodore Tso, (Thu Jan 17, 3:01 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Mark Junker, (Thu Jan 17, 2:50 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Pedro Melo, (Thu Jan 17, 2:12 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Johannes Schindelin, (Thu Jan 17, 2:18 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Mark Junker, (Thu Jan 17, 2:36 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Pedro Melo, (Thu Jan 17, 2:38 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Jan 17, 2:44 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Pedro Melo, (Thu Jan 17, 3:02 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Dmitry Potapov, (Thu Jan 17, 5:27 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Thu Jan 17, 12:30 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Martin Langhoff, (Thu Jan 17, 12:51 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Thu Jan 17, 1:23 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Geert Bosch, (Thu Jan 17, 2:13 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Mitch Tishmack, (Thu Jan 17, 3:11 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Wincent Colaiuta, (Thu Jan 17, 6:22 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Thu Jan 17, 9:44 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Johannes Schindelin, (Thu Jan 17, 11:57 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Thu Jan 17, 12:53 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Robin Rosenberg, (Thu Jan 17, 8:44 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Andrew Heybey, (Thu Jan 17, 10:02 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Thu Jan 17, 11:04 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kyle Moffett, (Sat Jan 19, 3:29 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Sat Jan 19, 3:57 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Jan 16, 8:25 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Johannes Schindelin, (Wed Jan 16, 8:33 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Jan 16, 9:06 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Pedro Melo, (Wed Jan 16, 8:43 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Johannes Schindelin, (Wed Jan 16, 8:57 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, David Kastrup, (Wed Jan 16, 7:58 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Jan 16, 8:19 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Eyvind Bernhardsen, (Wed Jan 16, 6:37 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Jay Soffian, (Thu Jan 17, 12:43 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Jan 17, 1:11 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Jay Soffian, (Thu Jan 17, 12:59 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Junio C Hamano, (Thu Jan 17, 1:15 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Wincent Colaiuta, (Thu Jan 17, 6:28 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Johannes Schindelin, (Thu Jan 17, 7:10 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Pedro Melo, (Thu Jan 17, 7:23 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Johannes Schindelin, (Thu Jan 17, 9:05 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Wincent Colaiuta, (Thu Jan 17, 7:51 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Johannes Schindelin, (Thu Jan 17, 8:53 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Wincent Colaiuta, (Thu Jan 17, 9:40 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Wincent Colaiuta, (Thu Jan 17, 7:46 am)