On Wed, Jul 02, 2008 at 03:16:27PM -0700, Curtis Penner wrote:
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> Let us take this further.
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> Let's compare BSD to the Linux install solutions.  Well, lets not, Linux=
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> is so far ahead of BSD.  Linux understands the user.
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Some distros, perhaps, though I'd say that the fact that there is an
overwhelming number of distros, with most of them doing things in
complete different and incompatible ways,is an indication that the
Linux community, in general, does not "understand the user" any
more than the BSD community.

That's not to say that I don't think there's a place for a few distros,
just as there are a few different flavours of BSD.

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> BSD has a better overall core OS then the other UNIX flavors.  The size=
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> to capability is outstanding. Once you have the core OS on the system it=
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> is rock steady and only getting better.  The documentation is=20
> outstanding. It is what others should look to.
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> So what is wrong?
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> It doesn't have the native 3rd party applications. Why? Not enough=20
> users. Why? Because it is hard to get what you want unless you are tech=
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> savvy.

Could you explain what you means by "It doesn't have the native 3rd
party applications."

And it's certainly not hard to get what you want.  The ports system
has >18k ports and is extremely easy to use. Especially when you consider
the quality of our documentation, which as you have rightly pointed out,
is excellent.

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> When you do a system install it is like jumping back to the 80's.  The=20
> front-end is like something from the DOS days.  You have to be tech=20
> savvy to know what you want to do.  You have to search out all the=20
> variations of the applications (tedious and unnecessary) to get a full=20
> package -- Examples: Postgres, PHP, etc.  To add wireless (very common=20
> these day), you better set aside as much time or more as doing the=20
> initial install.
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Noone is going to argue on the point of sysinstall.  But as already
mentioned, there are possible replacements in progress.

Wireless can also be a little tricky, but I don't believe the situation
is any different with Linux.

As for the ports, I don't see what your point is.  People who know what
they require will have no trouble finding it, and if there's anyone out
there who panics when confronted with the various versions of postgresql
in ports, and doesn't know which to use... why would they be=20
installing it in the first place?

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> Given that the system is rock solid, you think more people would develop=
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> on it, at least secondarily.  But no.  Java - go fish.  All the=20
> development environments and features that go with it (Eclipse, NetBean,=
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> Hibernation, Sturts, and so forth) are painful to get.  You feel like a=
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> rabbit jumping around, and then it most likely doesn't work.  That is=20
> such a turn off.
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I can't comment much on these (don't do Java development) except to say
that FreeBSD has good Java support, and that I've installed and used=20
Eclipse on FreeBSD before without hassles.

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> As for the installs, to get an idea of how to package an install, look=20
> at the current install packages that are from the Linux side. You don't=
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> have to copy, but emulate.  (Oh, the best out-of-the-box is Apple.)
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FreeBSD has packages.  They're not the best.  They're definitely not the
worst.

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> I have installed Linux, MacOS, HPUX, Solaris, Window (NT, XP, Vista),=20
> and the BSDs, and I have found the BSDs to be so yesterday that there is=
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> little in common with the rest.
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FUD. FreeBSD is a stable, high performance, modern operating system
suitable for server, desktop and laptop use (I do all three).  A few=20
parts of the system are due for an overhaul.

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> Porting, so that applications that matter go native, we need more=20
> installs and more people on the systems.  That means more installs to=20
> laptops. The installs have to be seamless and complete.  That mean=20
> getting more Open Source people and companies to compile and distribute B=
SD.
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Yes, that would be great.  So if you want to see that, why are you
spreading all this FUD?

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> I am looking forward to a time when installing BSD is point and click=20
> with not much understanding of what is going on (unless I want to go=20
> advance and do special custom work).
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> -Curtis

frase